You can't have it all ways:
1. If the RFM prohibits it - don't do it - endex.

If the RFM (Bronx this is for you in mono syllables, just in case) such as the B3e doesn't mention it, it is because section 2.1 covers it: One flight crew in the RH seat. IF a helicopter is burning and turning (at idle or otherwise) then it is deemd to be in a state of 'flight' because YOU ARE LOGGING THIS FLIGHT TIME - Bronx. Don't try to tell me otherwise. No-one will tell me they stop logging flight time everytime they go to idle or sit on the deck for minutes on end doing nothing and then start logging time once they wind the throttle(s) up and or go flying again. So the cab is deemed to be in flight mode during this hiatus in the actual flight - Thus a pilot MUST / SHALL be present and in the R H seat. Endex. Capiche?
So the pilot who exited his 350B3e for a fluid check exited against the RFM rules. QED.

Cotteral - you are in the wrong section, you need - wannabees.
SuperF - no need to ban anything - it is already prohibited from leaving a cab which is running.
LASJayhawk - if your ops 'demands' that you cannot shut down everytime - then negotiate with the OEM's to change the RFM. It's not easy but if a major player in the fraternity feels the need to do this - it will happen and you will get an exemption.

TC,

Umm, that's exactly what I do.

Every single time I land I write down the time, then just before I pull pitch I write the time down again. Up to 60 times a day. Client gets charged running time, machine gets air time (I would say flight but I'm afraid it would confuse you further than you already are) and I log the time I was in the air. Flight time. Time the Helicopter was in Flight. In the air. Not on the ground. Simple.

It is required by my governing body and my company so that's what I do. I have logged running time when required by a different governing body and different company. Same type of helicopter. I am a firm believer that Flight time means in the air.

I agree 100% that I am responsible for the helicopter until I have tied the blades down and turned the battery off. If someone walks into the machine, I am responsible. Not arguing with you there, but if I am loading passengers and my machine is running, legally allowed where I work, I am not flying. I am standing outside loading passengers. The machine is not in flight and I am not logging flight time for me or the machine. Clients are going to be charged for it though.

All these fancy definitions but have you looked in a dictionary - try an English one if you like. I think you may be quite surprised.

Canterbury - are you sure that is not just a way of your employer extending the servicing intervals on the aircraft by claiming it is not flying when it is rotors turning on the ground?

You may not be airborne but the engine is still having to turn the gearbox which is still dragging the blades around plus the TR drive and any other ancillaries.

The manufacturers will have calculated the fatigue spectrum of the aircraft and I am pretty sure they would agree that rotors turning on the ground is still fatiguing the aircraft. ISTR R22s have an hours run meter which relates to rotors turning time, not airborne time for exactly this reason.

canterbury crusader

Good post. :ok:


That might be a bit tricky for TC to grasp.
Have you got any pictures to illustrate what you're saying?



crab Whether it is or it isn't doesn't change the fact that when he's standing outside the helicopter he sure ain't flying it.

I have never been required to log running time in a tech log or maintenance release regardless of the country I was working nor have I every heard of it happening.

In regards to the R22 I believe there are calculations in regards to how much flight time has happened if you log engine time. Haven't flown one for a long time and never worked on one so possibly wrong on that. Will leave that one at that.

Every company I have worked for log air time for the aircraft. That's what the manufacturers ask for. Bear in mind most machines were designed more than 40 years ago when Flight time meant flight time.

Yes, but I believe the written description is sufficient.

It would be for almost everyone. ;)

Further to Canterbury Crusader, the largest HEMS provider in the USA defines lift to touchdown as the flight time to be recorded. Time spent on the ground, rotors turning is not flight time. Minimum flight creww has nothing to do with non-flight operations. Anyhow, that is how I've logged flight time, exactly time spent manipulating the controls for the purpose of flight since 1968. I've spent thousands of hours at ground and flight idle, in the boonies, day and night; off-shore, day and night; country-side; city-scapes; roof-tops; highways and byways; a rail right of way or two.

The company also permits their AS350 pilots to leave the controls, rotors turning. The process allowing that is defined in the FAA approved operations manual. Contrary to the assertions of some, it is not a casual event, undertaken without regard to risk. The PIC is always responsible. I have done so on occasion when I felt it required.

Whether or not one can imagine a circumstance where it is a better choice than shutting down, your lack of imagination isn't sufficient justification to deprive the pilot on scene of an option. The FAA does not prohibit it. The RFM may permit it. The owner allows it. The PIC might evaluate risk and decide it to be reasonable. All these are directly accountable and have standing to exercise control.

An aside- do any of your maintenance personnel hold run-up authorization????

Bronx,

Be careful, you will be accused of trying to start a Spam/Brit fight!

When we over hear say things like that about them over there, they get awfully snippy. You should be prepared to take hostile fire from Brits over your comment as they just do not grasp things American including your Big Apple Humor.

Crab,
(without entering the general fray of this thread, but to clarify this specific point) it is entirely normal to only log airborne time in the tech log, and this is the time used for service intervals and component life compliance. Aircraft with HUMS will record this for you. The OEMs will agree that time on the ground running is fatiguing, but this is factored into their limits based on experience (of typical usage).

Bob

Not all Brits are the same as TC.

http://www.pakwheels.com/forums/atta...-thank-god.gif

Why does 2.1.1 in the 2B1 manual specifically prohibit the pilot from leaving the controls if that is already addressed by requiring a pilot for flight in 2.1.2? (See where your construction falls apart?)

In the end, your opinion doesn't have any bearing on reality or the situation at hand.


They also appear to be unable to identify sarcasm, even at extremely close range.

I'm coming to the US for a 3-week holiday (vacation) later this month, I'll try to practice my sarcasm-recognition skills before I get there;)

I will even be going on a helicopter trip over the Grand Canyon so I will make sure I don't cause offence to anyone operating a helicopter in an un-British fashion.



OK back to flight time vs running time.......................................

YIKES! No Droop in the Blades and no Pilot attending the Controls! Sound the Crash Alarm....Go!




http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/...C7727DE6F8.jpg

My friend made a mistake that he paid with his life for.

You can keep your personal snide remarks about his intelligence and his airman ship to yourself unless you would like to meet in person and we can discuss your piss poor attitude face to face.

While I see what your trying to do (at least it seems like your trying to advocate for more safety in flight ops) you sound like an assh*ole.

"I'll ask again, why are you so obsessed with creating a violation of policy/procedure/regulation where there clearly isn't one?"

I don't want to create anything I'm just amazed that an authority allows an activity that is so potentially dangerous.


When it came to making up the regulations, did they look at the model, the link of which was posted earlier, looked at the bit that says;
... and thought, "Tell you what, we'll group all aircraft in one and leave off any mention or reference to power ..... what could possibly go wrong!

Oh, how they must chuckle on their way to the enquiries.

I suspect it's easier targeting a guy that isn't around to stand up for himself, than a guy that is.

Lol,, in fact pmsl with a bit if roflmao ... zoom in Bob, there's someone at the controls :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Read my post JEC, not the man, the system :=

With your keen focus I am surprised the obvious has missed you by so far. Keep up the good work and maybe you will get there yet.

Maybe we need to be far more subtle in the future to provoke you to look well into the issues.

I will modify my post. Add an "If" at the start and that should make it accurate.