Steep!
 

Wow,

That is an interesting angle for descending...... is there any view on why it was such a test for auto's? Given one is having a go at a scale model, perhaps the same will be true for it!

Cheers,

Gaz

PS Absolutely convinced that the Blue Peter presenter was in a Scout and made loud scared noises, and not a figment of my imagination having just seen this!

That's the best Scout EOL I have ever seen, perfectly executed by 2 Royal Navy TPs. The coning angle at the end gives away the clue that every ounce of inertia was used and I guess (shortish run on) into a decent breeze. Cracking video.

Please sir more!
 

Are there other such videos, found a few on YouTube but none so informative but a lot of fun like balancing on the c of g on a wall!

Gaz

Mechanical info....
 

Folks,

If anyone has any information ora pictures/schematics or the like I would be grateful to see them.

One thing I am really keen to see is the mast mechanism under the cover. I am looking at what I think are the pitch contro levers and wondering how mechanically efficient they are as the principle of leverage seems to not be in their favour. I may of course be viewing something else hence the hope to find some info, perhaps maintenance or flight manuals.

Thanks again, literally just have to get this project off the ground!

Regards,


Gaz

Not sure if this can assist?

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-S...no/XT626+a.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-H...no/XT626+c.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-u...no/XT626+f.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-q...no/XT626+g.jpg

Very helpful indeed thanks
 

Thanks Savoia,

Those are the best close ups I have seen so far and give me some thoughts, and Ideas. On the last one where the gaiter has come free, I am particularly interested to see what it is attached to and the control mechanism for it, under the hood as it were.

I may be oversimplifying it, but am assuming that as those levers are attached to a C shaped control arm, then by raising or lowering these levers singularly or in combination, causes the necessary change in blade pitch during rotation to angle the rotor disc and therefore change the direction/lift of the heli.

I am keen to see under the skin how that works, it may not be possible or appropriate to completely replicate in the model as doubtless these systems were controlled hydraulically and I will be using an electric digital servo which are very powerful, have high resolution and are reasonably fast.

I am also intrigued about the rotor head and the various mechanisms on there, the autorotation video you kindly put up shows a couple of weights (which you can see on these stills) rotating outwards, and then whilst still rotating closing to the main shaft.

I'd be really interested in any explanation of the components above my simplistic understanding.

When you see a picture this close, and see that the blades are being held by two admittedly well manufactured and quality controlled pins, it is quite awesome to understand the forces and stresses that may be apparent but are effectively the main reason you are in the air!!!

On models, the relative strengths are much much higher as mass is lower, energy is lower but the tensile strength of the materials remain the same. It always reminds my of my physics teacher explaining how molecules relative strength is at its' peak when you try and pull it apart...... thank goodness!! Additionally the swash plate is a simple mechanism, practically a bearing mounted on the main shaft encapsulated by a disc with ball link connections from the servo and linkage and another encapsulated bearing with ball links to the rotor blade grips, as you hopefully can see in the attached picture.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/r3r2hffdkizwc4k/wBlFOZD3KP


(ignore the cowl, being prepped for glassfibre moulding practice!)

I really appreciate all your input, you clearly are an expert in the Scout and it is so helpful!

Thanks,

Gaz

PS Is there any easier way to display pictures?

Lol, sadly not!

But, as mentioned, my late godfather was test pilot on the Saunders-Roe P531 which served as the prototype to the Scout and, spurred by his numerous recollections, I have maintained an informal interest in the types he flew .. and many others besides.

What you really need is input from a former Scout engineer, perhaps Icy Waters aka PPRuNer helimarshaller ;) and there may be others besides?

Gazzer,
I have a Scout AH1 Flight Manual and set of FRC's which may be of interest to you. We're in the same county, making it easy to get them to you once I dig them out. I'll PM you once they've been located.
:ok:

Gazzer, I have everything you need with access to airframes, aircrew manuals and engineering manuals. You can talk freely to me or the engineers and take whatever copies you wish. You know who I am and no doubt now others will have worked out who I am.

Spoilt rotten!!!
 

Gents,

I am humbled.

Silsoe, I would love to get a copy of those manuals, many thanks indeed. Being that it is a small county happy to travel and cross your palms with legal tender or bottled ferment as appropriate, and appreciate that they would be on loan. I am equidistant betwixt Banbury and Coventry.

Sloppy,

You are a true gent, perhaps I could arrange a visit when convenient? I'd be happy to share some stories as hinted in our PM's! I would certainly relish the engineers discussion.

It matters to me the principles of how the Scout was engineered, the reality in model terms to get to that level of operating detail is circumspect. That said..... the modern materials and manufacturing capabilities with 3 axis CNC, 3D printing and the like make replication much easier, but in scaling down, it doesn't always work to advantage. The turbine is a good example, the only functional design is more akin to the Whittle design with centrifugal action as opposed to axial. There are axial engines, but nothing yet off the shelf. The kind of turbine that will drive this used to need propane to start, so that the combustion chamber was hot enough to burn the kerosene, though now they have overcome that. All said, the molecule size is the same for model or full size as are the temperatures which mean vaporizing the fuel is tougher in the model as is heat dissipation with much smaller surface areas.

But that is where the challenge lies. Please also tell me if I am banging on too much. My life's regret is not to push myself when younger, physically and mentally. I know not whether I could have made it as a heli pilot, but I never made the chance or opportunity, this is as close as I can get and is a passion but one of which I wish not to bore you about!

I reckon we are looking at rotor diameter of about 2.4 metres when built, which is pretty large, so ought have some presence in the air and be large enough to detail in great accuracy.

First though the research, and then in tandem the mechanical development and the fuselage components.... better start loosening up my sanding arm!

Thank you again everyone, this is all really, really helpful and fascinating to boot.

Cheers,

Gaz

The control system is a spider and piston system which I think was only utilised on Westland aircraft. Very different to Bell, Eurocopter e.t.c.

I believe the joint in the middle was known as a Hardy Spicer but don't hold me to that, I am dredging the brain for 40 year old data.

The two lumps of metal with rods going down to the area of the spider are the pitch moment compensators.

I thought the blades were held on by a couple of gash bolts, the nutplates are missing in the photo!!!!!!!!

Going for a lie down now.

Progress
 

Does anyone recognise this?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0eyb5mrpq6...background.bmp

I hope so, it is the very start of the project I acquired autocad and did a rough draft up, something I have never done before, was quite pleased with the results!

Next step is to 3d model this in the same software and then start producing some working designs with the mechanical side.....

Thought would let you know project is moving forward!

Cheers,

Gaz

Gazzer: Please do keep us informed and be sure to send us some photos or a video clip once she's complete!

Some model-makers are doing a pretty good job of getting close though ..

Happy building! :ok:

Gazzer:

Not sure if this can be useful to you?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3...ut+Diagram.jpg
Westland Scout XT629 of B Flight 3 Commando Brigade Air Squadron

As you probably know .. XT629 was gunned-down by two FMA IA58 Pucarás in what was the only air-to-air victory for the Argentinians during the Falklands War. 29's driver was lost and his crewman severely injured. :(

Savoia,

Nah everything and I mean everything is wrong with that .

Thanks
 

Thanks Savoia,

That is really a good and helpful picture, many thanks.

Perhaps a model in recognition of the ultimate sacrifice would be appreciated, ..... will have a think about it

Cheers,

Gaz

Gazzer: Indeed. I shall need to get the facts straight first however.

Mostafa: Taken from a summary on Aviation Safety Network but if you have more detailed information describing what happened to XT629 on that fateful day, please feel free to contribute so that we can get the facts straight.

I think MOSTAFA may be referring to the inherant inaccuracies present in someone's artistic interpretation.

Westland Scout model
 

Latest helicopter magazine model is a Westland Scout


http://helicopter-magazine.com/uk/wp.../07/UKHC29.jpg

Exactly dig - if you want Gaz as already offered I'll put you in touch with most of the RM crews including the Gunner who survived that ordeal but that is a horrible totally out of scale drawing.

From my notes at the time confirm details of incident.
Last time I saw 629 it was painted black and green, had Royal Marines on the tail and coded DR. It was giving me a lift from the Elk back to the Europic Ferry where it stayed until D Day. Then left to join the rest of 3CBAS RM.

Picture presented is c**p & looks like it has been taken from a kids art magazine.

RIP Dick.

Uncharacteristically for me, I was trying to be a little less forthright. :ok:

Ah well Gazzer, 629 seems to have raised some responses so, just maybe, your intention of dedicating this project to the memory of late Lt. Richard 'Dick' Nunn, DFC is appropriate, particularly seeing as you had an interest in those aircraft which served in the Falklands.

Regarding drawings, perhaps you could measure the main dimensions from a museum aircraft and scale them down! How do scale-modelers go about building things without detailed plans?

Gazzer - Try contacting the CFI at Heliflight UK in Gloucester. She used to have a large (A1 size?) drawing of a Scout on her office wall.

Gaz

Didn't SS offer you an ODM or copy? That has all the dimensions in it.

I'm certain I've got one in the attic or garage somewhere but that might take a week to find so I don't want to offer unless he can't find his. There is also the famous Scout sliderule and a damper thingy checker somewhere.

Yes we actually carried a sliderule! Best bit of kit ever invented for a single pilot moving 150+ pax in/exfills over 30Nm transits with 500lbs of fuel.

Got all the AP's, Pilots Notes, real aircraft (the one featured on the photo posted by wiganairways).

I think my ODM & FRC's were trumped by Slinks offer :(
I acquired many things along the way, but the old kit bag wasn't quite big enough for an airframe ;)

I can put you in touch with a bloke who torched one.

digin, This wouldn't be the "Avtag doesn't burn" bloke by any chance?

http://www.explode-mode.com/nuke.jpg

SS - the very same, who subsequent to his incarceration in Colchester joined Humberside Fire Brigade.

Gaz it seems to me you have access through SL to all you ever going to need. Love to see its completion.

Gentlemen,

My day was cut short by two cancelled appointments and up here in Lanky its not a nice day so I have spent a short amount of time reading this thread from the first post, ...What an interesting Helicopter and what a huge range of jobs it could do, , one of the most informative threads I have read for months .

My regards to you all. :D
Peter R-B
Lancashire

Including that all time favourite the disemination of chemical warfare agents!!!!!!

Found this in the back of a hangar in New Jersey
 

Sorry for the poor quality photos. Happened to be at an airport in southern New Jersey a few months ago and found XV134 in the back of a hangar. Can't imagine there are too many of these in the USA. Looked on the FAA website and it is registered but has no airworthiness at this time; does have experimental on the side though so hopefully someone gets it flying again one of these days.

http://s5.postimg.org/4ynxslb47/image.jpg

http://s5.postimg.org/93yuei8w7/image.jpg

http://s5.postimg.org/6b5muh8jr/image.jpg

The best fun I ever had flying the Scout was single pilot over the jungle doing resup para drops off the ramp in the back dispatched by 47 AD. I forget what we called the slide thing in the back?

Scout helicopter in NI/Falklands
 

While it is true that the army only had one designation for the Scout helicopter, (AH1) it is not true to say that any Scout could be used in both Utility and ATGW roles. ATGW Scouts could be operated as Utility aircraft, but Utility Scouts could not be operated in the ATGW role as they lacked the attachment points for the missile booms, attachment lugs for the AF 120 sight, apertures in the cabin floor to allow the passage of missile system wiring and only had one rotary inverter installed. (ATGW aircraft required two)

Utility Scouts could usually be identified by the lack of an aperture for the AF 120 sight in the canopy above the gunner's (LH) seat, such as in the photograph of "XP 900" (Which if you look closely enough you will see that it is actually XP 896) As to whether Falklands war Scouts were ever used in N.I., that is highly likely as all BAOR squadrons (i.e. ATGW squadrons) were rotated through N.I. on four month emergency tours, and aircraft are routinely transferred from one unit to another for a variety of reasons.

Finally, the SS 11 missile has a maximum effective range of 3,000 metres, not 6,000metres as was stated in another posting. The maximum range is dictated by the length of the command wires fed from a spool within the missile body.

Scout underpowered
 

I think I would have to take slight issue with the Scout being under-powered. I would have said it was better than most types I have flown. I flew it in Hong Kong in 1971/74 where, if my memory serves me, the highest landing was just at over three thousand feet. The summer temperatures were in the thirties and we loaded it to the limit with Ghurkas and radios and flew them into some very tight spots and I never quite ran out of power.

I graduated to the Scout from the Bell 47 Sioux, the Hiller 12B/C and the Saro Skeeter. Now that was underpowered - on a bad day, trying to get airborne from a road on the side of a hill with a large passenger, I couldn't even extend the oleos fully.

I think I said somewhere in the dim and distant past there was nothing underpowered about the Scout - it operated at 3-5k DA at AUW in the Far East all day long - bulked out on many an occasion - if you could get Translational lift you were gone - it was like having an extra gear!

ATGW was just another role all AH1s could be fitted.

Scout helicopter role discrepancy.
 

Please take a look at Scout "Q" on the cover of "Helicopter Magazine" on page 4 of this string. Immediately below the rear corner of the back door, you will see an external horizontal stiffener with an attachment lug on each end. These lugs are the lower attachment points for the SS11 booms, i.e. an ATGW specific aircraft. Now look at the left hand side view of XV 134/N438VC also on page 4. No stiffener, no attachment lugs, therefore NO ATGW capability, i.e. a Utility specific aircraft. ATGW aircraft had a third external stiffener below the footstep. Utility Scouts do not. This is a structural modification and cannot be transferred between aircraft. ATGW/Utility......never the twain shall meet.

Well 1900hrs of Scout Piloting and nobody told me that! I must have been having a kip during Bob H? Tech lessons and Oscar's ? Subsequent refresher. Thanks for pointing out my error. Just out of interest your initials aren't RP are they?