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-   -   UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/511282-uk-sar-2013-privatisation-new-thread.html)

[email protected] 15th Jun 2015 18:45

Ou, peut etre, les autres ne sont pas les professeurs de vol comme nos deux crabes.

MOSTAFA 15th Jun 2015 19:07

De toute évidence.

jimf671 21st Jun 2015 14:34

Mentioned in Despatches
 
Yesterday, without the aid of a safety net or stab vest, and with limited fire support, Clark Broad gave a presentation to the Scottish Mountain Rescue General Committee, prior to our AGM, on Bristow SAR implementation. Questions from the floor focussed on delays affecting Inverness.

As usual, the contractor is expected to take the blame for decades of DfT shortcomings and MoD aircraft and equipment inadequacies are overlooked.

A more informed approach from some could have advanced collaborative working and the service to the poor soul lying in the snow.

Clever Richard 22nd Jun 2015 18:57

In order to be more informed I thought I would get the information from the horse's mouth as it were. Can't get much better than this:
SAR Bases | Bristow Search and Rescue
Inverness went live on 1st April 2015 so what is all this talk of delay?

[email protected] 22nd Jun 2015 21:32

Oh well that's OK then - there must be a completely different reason Wattisham is being extended by a month then.

Jim you appear to have changed your tune somewhat - are you now saying they can do no wrong and nothing is their fault because that is what it sounds like.

jimf671 22nd Jun 2015 21:40

Yes. D flight went out with a flourish and 951 arrived with a flourish in the form of a hot handover in Lochaber on the morning of the 1st April.

However, a combinations of AW's lateness with the 189, Balfour Beatty's roofing skills and surprises from the regulator, have particularly conspired against Inverness. This has had a significant impact on the training programme for their SAR partners. Some of us have started to catch up by applying a bit of innovation :ok: but some of us have not and would rather sound off about it. :ugh: The second significant impact is on achieving flight-wide NVG currency where, even more shocking than that impact, we are faced with Crab being right. :eek: Fortunately, it doesn't get dark here until August. :hmm:

In a few days, there will be four UK SAR Helicopter Service bases operational. The three nearest the equator will all have NVG capability. One might speculate that since St Athan is the only base working-up during the next quarter, the NVG training load now drops. The catch-up plan should accelerate.

jimf671 22nd Jun 2015 21:47

The two AW139, G-CIJW and G-CIJX, have been at Lydd for several days and JX has been out and about.


One AW189, G-MCGN, has been out and about around Norwich recently. G-MCGP is at Yeovil and not flying. It looks like G-MCGM is also there. Anyone know more? Final pre-deployment fettling? Modifications?

jimf671 22nd Jun 2015 22:33


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 9021022)
Oh well that's OK then - there must be a completely different reason Wattisham is being extended by a month then. ...


That;s what people were saying around RAF Lossiemouth in March but on the morning of the 1st April, the champagne cork popped and it was all over.

The SAR RC 22nd Jun 2015 22:43


Wattisham is being extended by a month

In a few days, there will be four UK SAR Helicopter Service bases operational
Both of these statements can't be true.


However, a combinations of AW's lateness with the 189, Balfour Beatty's roofing skills and surprises from the regulator, have particularly conspired against Inverness
Perhaps the resources (human and otherwise) available to train incoming aircrew may be something to add to your list.


The three nearest the equator will all have NVG capability
Down to ground level?

dangermouse 23rd Jun 2015 08:09

corrections for Jim
 
sorry you have some duff gen, no 189s that have been delivered as SAR cabs are in Yeovil or have been returned, GM and GP certainly arent, only the next production ones, G-MCGR & GS.

DM

jimf671 23rd Jun 2015 11:48


Originally Posted by dangermouse (Post 9021355)
sorry you have some duff gen, no 189s that have been delivered as SAR cabs are in Yeovil or have been returned, GM and GP certainly arent, only the next production ones, G-MCGR & GS.

DM


Tracked to Yeovil and not seen returning. No recent tracks.

dangermouse 23rd Jun 2015 13:47

well they ain't in Yeovil
 
100% guaranteed, maybe tracked FROM yeovil rather than to?

DM

Bucaneer Bill 25th Jun 2015 07:41

Wait and see
 
I believe there has for some time been a transition period of three months for the new SAR bases to stand up, and when all is well the redundant RAF SAR base to cease operations. Perhaps folk should conserve energy until such time as the three month period has been exceeded.:8

Jerry Can 25th Jun 2015 20:41

SAR RC yes down to ground level.

The SAR RC 25th Jun 2015 21:38

All aircrew at all three flights? No fibbing now.

jimf671 26th Jun 2015 06:49


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 9021022)
... Jim you appear to have changed your tune somewhat - are you now saying they can do no wrong and nothing is their fault because that is what it sounds like.


It has to be faced that there are two flights out there doing it for real. In the case of Inverness, in spite of their problems, it looks like they will exceed the typical Q2 number of jobs for Lossiemouth. It is perfectly possible that the people of the north of Scotland are simply having more mishaps this year but there is certainly limited ammunition for us to suggest that they are held back by aircraft or aircrew capability.

Let's remember that nobody has done this before. Not the customer, not the contractor and not the regulator. This is helicopter SAR in hostile terrain with a full and challenging specification which as you well know is not simple, not cheap and not easy. Yet the last three months have been a success based on the ultimate measure: OUT THERE DOING IT. When Inverness NVG is complete, Managed Transition aircrew are in place and settled in, and AW189 is operational, it is reasonable to expect lots of really good work.

Jerry Can 26th Jun 2015 08:05


Originally Posted by The SAR RC (Post 9024486)
All aircrew at all three flights? No fibbing now.

I can only speak for my flight RC.

The SAR RC 26th Jun 2015 08:55

Well the original sweeping statement told us that the three flights nearest the equator were NVG capable. I've a feeling that was just rebroadcasting what was said at the MRT meeting that was being referred to.

Let's be clear. Being able to fix the goggles to one's helmet only above 500' does not equal an NVG capability. I have no doubt that in the fullness of time, considering the calibre of some of the people that have been recruited, that Bristow's UK SAR operation will have a full NVG capability down to ground level. But despite the contract requirements, that time is not now. So can we stop pretending that it is?

[email protected] 26th Jun 2015 18:47


Let's remember that nobody has done this before. Not the customer, not the contractor and not the regulator. This is helicopter SAR in hostile terrain with a full and challenging specification which as you well know is not simple, not cheap and not easy.
Jim, let's check the veracity of that statement - the milsar HAS been doing this for many, many years and set the bar very high in terms of capability - this is what the process of contractorisation had to emulate or exceed, it was quite clear what needed to be achieved and when, all parties signed up to it and a lot of money is involved.

As to the service up North so far - as you have said several times - it doesn't really get dark in Scotland in summer so it is not really a fair comparison.

Jerry Can 26th Jun 2015 21:35

Like I said before. The NVG training is and has been down to ground level, which as far as I know is below 500' and in the dark and everything ;)

jimf671 26th Jun 2015 21:46


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 9025514)
Jim, let's check the veracity of that statement - the milsar HAS been doing this for many, many years and set the bar very high in terms of capability - this is what the process of contractorisation had to emulate or exceed, it was quite clear what needed to be achieved and when, all parties signed up to it and a lot of money is involved.

... ...


It is true that milSAR have set the bar very high but that is 30% capability and 70% ethos. 'Per ardua ad astra' and 'Si vis pacem, para bellum' writ large and bright in a way that puts defence of the people of the UK into its widest possible context. :ok:

Let's remember that none of the flights that were operating up to 31st March 2015 from any of the four providers had the capability to comply with the demanding technical specification of this new contract. Any delays and temporary short-comings should be viewed in that context.

We should also remember that the DBIS, DfT, AW and the CAA have a share of the responsibility for where we are now.



La oss gĺ flyr. :cool:

cyclic 27th Jun 2015 18:48


n the dark and everything
I don't want to get involved in the mud slinging but that can't be true in Inverness - there is no night this time of year. They will have to wait until the end of August to get any low level stuff done. I know, 'cos I wos there.

Jerry Can 27th Jun 2015 20:17

I'm in Welsh Wales :)

I was at Lossie for 5 years too.

jimf671 28th Jun 2015 13:45

Hopefully, nobody has a plan for summer NVG training when it is Sumburgh's turn. :ugh:

cyclic 28th Jun 2015 15:21

Was always the way, we need you to be current for night jobs but there is no night so there won't be any night jobs...but you should remain current. That's SAR training statistics in a nutshell.

Took a lot of senior officers a long time to comprehend this.

[email protected] 29th Jun 2015 19:07

Not really - we rejigged the quarterly periods to remove the need for a lot of summer night flying many years ago and a 90 day night currency was hardly demanding to maintain.

Just because the 'centre' doesn't get night for the summer doesn't mean the rest of the UK is the same.

Perhaps a little foresight and understanding of SAR training might have led to a southern base -Newquay for example- being used for NVD training instead of Stornoway or Inverness.

Jerry Can 29th Jun 2015 20:11

The NVD training has been done at the individual flights. Good point though.

[email protected] 29th Jun 2015 21:52

So is there someone suitably qualified and experienced at delivering NVD training, from basic through to advanced SAR, providing that training at each flight?

If so, where did all that experience come from?

Jerry Can 29th Jun 2015 22:32

An NVD team doing the rounds.

jimf671 30th Jun 2015 01:15

I hope you guys have a good week Jerry Can. :ok:

Jerry Can 30th Jun 2015 15:57

Thanks Jim.

Al-bert 30th Jun 2015 16:06

You mean - Bristow are doing the NVG training in exactly the same way as we did it in RAFSAR when we first got goggles? Oh that will never do :}

[email protected] 30th Jun 2015 16:35


An NVD team doing the rounds.
with recent front-line SAR NVD training experience and proven track record of basic and advanced NVD techniques???

Jerry Can 30th Jun 2015 17:16

Yes, very experienced indeed. Fully qualified and very very good.

P3 Bellows 30th Jun 2015 18:26


with recent front-line SAR NVD training experience and proven track record of basic and advanced NVD techniques???
Oh Crab; you old wind-bag. Give it a rest why don't you.

Al-bert 30th Jun 2015 19:02

pity there isn't a like button on this forum :bored:

Jerry Can 30th Jun 2015 19:35

A pity indeed.

[email protected] 30th Jun 2015 20:13


Oh Crab; you old wind-bag. Give it a rest why don't you.
Imagine my surprise - we're back to personal insults when relevant questions are asked about the training.

There are a fixed number of people who have recent, relevant SAR NVD experience - not just teaching on an OCU , but operational front-line SAR tuition - and few of those have taught basic NVD as well.

Most of the ones I can think of are either still in the military or only just leaving to join Bristow and somehow I doubt that any homegrown civsar talent has any comparable level of experience.

I sincerely hope the training the new contract guys and girls get is top-notch because they aren't going to get anything like the amount of continuity training that RAFSAR was allowed.

It's a perishable skill and mixed white light and NVD takes practice, especially in crappy weather, blowing snow, recirculating spray etc.

Being an ex-Afghan warrior has little validity in the SAR environment and the hard won lessons from years of milsar should not be ignored - who would imagine that flying through a height bug without acknowledging it would be acceptable practice on NVD? Is that a Bristow SOP perchance?????

Try to do this sort of stuff on the cheap and it will bite someone on the ar*e - I don't care who does it, just that it is done properly.

Jerry Can 30th Jun 2015 21:25

It has been done properly by credible and skilled trainers. I understand your concerns but it doesn't have to be crap because it is civilian. I'm not spouting off having only experienced one side of SAR. I have a good amount of mil SAR experience and I can reassure you that the training was delivered by people with the right experience and it was well delivered and comprehensive. We didn't have a dark stormy night tick in the RAF but we trained people well, highlighted benefits and pitfalls of NVG and trusted people to use their judgement on that night to end all nights and to know their limits. Some Captains/crews were more capable than others and could do jobs that other crews wouldn't attempt at all but we didn't knock them for it as that is good airmanship. It's no different now. The kit is excellent and the aircraft is very well setup for NVG ops too.

llamaman 30th Jun 2015 23:10

At some stage Crab is going to have to get over the fact that Bristow didn't recruit him as their saviour to teach all things SAR. Of course Operational SAR experience is a relevant factor but it is not the be all and end all. The right people teaching a relevant package to capable crews and aircraft counts for a lot. Suggesting that 'ex-Afghan warriors' have little validity in the SAR environment demonstrates a lack of understanding of transferable (and relevant) aviation skills. Of course, having a winch fitted adds an extra dimension but operating in big mountains in very poor weather (and light levels) whilst managing a crew under sometimes extreme pressure is, I would argue, highly apposite.

And, believe it or not, many non-SAR types have demonstrated extremely good winching skills when required to do so (either through training or on Ops). In my opinion, part of the downfall of milSAR (specifically RAF SAR) is that an empire was built on the perpetuated belief that SAR is such a highly skilled discipline that nobody else can do it and you need to train day in day out to remain competent.

The Bristow approach is different (not necessarily better or worse) and many of us didn't want to see the end of MilSAR but that is where we are and the clock isn't going to be turned back. There will no doubt be some early 'blips' (the military has certainly never been 'blip-free') but maybe it's time to show the new guard a bit of support instead of a constant stream of negativity.


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