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-   -   UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/511282-uk-sar-2013-privatisation-new-thread.html)

jimf671 31st Mar 2013 10:52

Now let's see. 2 per base except one base with 1 a/c equals max of 23 a/c. 7 of them are at about 99% and let's be kind to the old girl and say 75% (sniggers behind hand).

So therefore we are moving from a realistic availability of 19 a/c to 21 or 22a/c and its a reduction.

Tell me if I'm way off target here.

mmitch 31st Mar 2013 12:05

As an Innocent (tax paying) bystander can anyone tell me if there are real penalties if someone is left in a life raft or on a mountain for 'an unacceptable time'? As these days the 'blame game' involves passing the buck from one to another alah NHS, can we be any more sure of SAR?
mmitch.

John Eacott 31st Mar 2013 12:12

Just to stir the pot: if a 189 is down then I assume the S92 stands in short term (assuming the one spare 189 is allocated elsewhere/unserviceable) and equivalent/better coverage is available.

What if the S92 is down and no spare 92 is available? Aren't the two types of different ranges and capability, so the second aircraft at the affected location may be unable to achieve the range required for the job?

All the SAR machines being phased out are of a like type and like capability: to infer that numbers alone are the criteria to be considered seems a blinkered view. A 189 doesn't seem to be a subsitute for either an S92, nor for a SAR Sea King.

Shackman 31st Mar 2013 12:31

You do the best with what you've got. When we had two types in yellow I certainly stood in for Sea Kings with a Wessex, whilst I can also remember a Sea King standing in for us when both our Wessi were u/s.

jimf671 31st Mar 2013 12:42

John, both types have some capabilities that exceed the DfT spec. As I understand it, we can't be sure of the 189 range until SAR prototype PT6 has been put through its paces from May or June onwards but I'm not expecting small numbers. Likewise with cabin accommodation, the 189 is expected to exceed the Lot 2 spec and approach the Lot 1 spec. The S-92 is a fat bar steward and its accommodation cannot always be fully utilised if the fuel load is high.

SASless 31st Mar 2013 13:46

Crab,

Do you use an Extension Ladder to get up on your Horse?:ugh:

[email protected] 31st Mar 2013 13:58

No - do you ever take your 'all is best in US' blinkers off?

212man 31st Mar 2013 14:00


As an Innocent (tax paying) bystander can anyone tell me if there are real penalties if someone is left in a life raft or on a mountain for 'an unacceptable time'?
Why are they going to wait for an unacceptable time?

ukv1145 31st Mar 2013 14:13

Just to confirm, there will be a duty and a spare aircraft at each base. It will take 2 aircraft to become unserviceable to take a base offline. In which case the spare from another base or the designated spare could be used.

jimf671 31st Mar 2013 16:30


... tell me if there are real penalties if someone is left in a life raft or on a mountain for 'an unacceptable time'?

When the court hears that they did not provide a valid postcode in their Mayday, surely there will be no case to answer? :rolleyes:

[email protected] 31st Mar 2013 17:08

Just because someone gets themselves into trouble, does not guarantee they will be rescued - it never has and it never will - you need the crew, the aircraft and the weather to perform the rescue.

The Captain of the aircraft is responsible for the safety of his aircraft and crew over and above that of the casualty and there will always be some situations where the risk to life of the crew outweighs the enormous will and desire to rescue the casualty.

Talk of unacceptable waits for rescue is pointless - someone who is bobbing in a raft (unless with a life threatening injury) is a far lower priority than someone clinging to a rockface who is a lower priority than someone being swept away in the dark by flood water.

Unless you want hundreds of helicopters ready to rescue everyone all the time, you will never give absolute certainty but, by the time you add in the RNLI, the Coastguard ground units, the mountain rescue organisations, the police, fire and ambulance crews and the many volunteers out there, the UK provides a fairly comprehensive safety net for those in trouble.

Norma Snockers 31st Mar 2013 17:19


Just to confirm, there will be a duty and a spare aircraft at each base. It will take 2 aircraft to become unserviceable to take a base offline. In which case the spare from another base or the designated spare could be used.
Except they do not provide any additional crews to ferry the aircraft around. You do your 24 hour shift then go home, no air testing or ferrying etc because that will cost the company extra money in overtime!
Same goes for BIG jobs where in the past the military have sent 2nd aircraft from the same base (I have done lots of these), under the new regime, this will no longer happen. But hey the one aircraft they will provide can get there 20% quicker so it must be alright :)

[email protected] 31st Mar 2013 17:30

But we haven't had the second standby crew availability (except on an opportunity basis) for a few years now and the serviceability at many flights has been patchy to say the least. In the last 12 years I have done less than a handful of seconds call-ins - it is not the same as it was in the 80s and 90s.

Al-bert 31st Mar 2013 17:45

Crab says
 

it is not the same as it was in the 80s and 90s.
sadly not. WIWOW I can only remember a couple of times that we went 'off state' in 11 years, and many times both aircraft were out at the same time, and even a third if we had the Sqn/SARTS spare. Even at night, when we had no seconds commitment, I recall seconds being launched (Lockerbie, ferry Norona etc - and that was with Sea Kings, albeit somewhat younger SK's).
Great days, what went wrong? Ananuvver thing, in 21 years and 800+ 'rescues' I never got to rescue a FJ mate - they were all picked up by Boulmer, Leconfield or Colt - now what might be wrong with the new plan I wonder? :hmm:
ps do we still have any FJ's? :ouch:

Norma Snockers 31st Mar 2013 18:04


But we haven't had the second standby crew availability (except on an opportunity basis) for a few years now and the serviceability at many flights has been patchy to say the least. In the last 12 years I have done less than a handful of seconds call-ins - it is not the same as it was in the 80s and 90s.
But even in the last few months (floods, tornado crash at Lossiemouth etc) we've got second crews in even though we do not formally hold seconds! Partly because we are paid 24/7/365 and also because we don't have a union that would demand overtime pay.
I can't help feeling that our lack of pushing seconds is less to do with our manning crisis and more to do with easing the transition to the takeover where they will not provide a surge capability, that way they can say we haven't provided one for years when in actual fact we still can and do!

Al-bert 31st Mar 2013 18:19

Contractors?
 
Norma - did things change when they contractorised the ground crew?
It occurred just after I left but I can recall more than a few occasions when ALL our available GC's pitched in to keep the flight (and seconds under a certain wee Jock Chiefy) on state (WX gearbox change, double engine change in field etc). I also noted a 'commitment shift' in some of the younger aircrew I encountered (on Sea Kings) who were more interested in ISS, ATPL's or OU than keeping the flight 'on state' at all costs and some had an unfortunate willingness to snag the old girls! :*

Norma Snockers 31st Mar 2013 18:36

[quoteNorma - did things change when they contractorised the ground crew? ][/quote]

Certainly in the early days they did, before the company realised that they needed a) more people than they thought and b) people with SK experience!
They are better now. For the "big" jobs, they do not bring in all the off shift eng's (overtime you know) but they will provide a roaming "tiger team" if and where it is required.

meanttobe 31st Mar 2013 19:20

Now let's see. 2 per base except one base with 1 a/c equals max of 23 a/c. 7 of them are at about 99% and let's be kind to the old girl and say 75% (sniggers behind hand).

Spare a thought for the Irish SAR contract. 4 bases with only 5 S92 aircraft. :ok:

jimf671 31st Mar 2013 19:29

If Charlie November had not ditched, perhaps the UK would have had a 15 aircraft contract.

Lioncopter 31st Mar 2013 19:38

Norma

The coast of paying overtime to a ferry crew is nothing compaired to the cost in fines with going off-state... it is a no brainer.....

I have have been part of a "seconds" coastguard crew, a situation arose with flooding, a base was asked if we could generate a second crew and aircraft, when we did.... we were told we were not needed and no request had ever been made.... Not one member of that crew asked about overtime or days off...

I think the Mentality of the people (pilots, rear-crew, engineers) doing the job is the same no matter what it says on the side of the aircraft.

.....and yes you do still have some FJ... we know as they are all going to be flying round the north off Scotland in about two weeks!

;)

Baldeep Inminj 31st Mar 2013 20:22

Interesting too is the managed path the RAF have created. Take it from me, it is a work of fiction. Min req for a SAR captain will be 500 hrs on type (ask bristows, they'll tell you). They are hiring NOW to fill their SAR slots, putting guys on the oil and gas run, to get the hours up. They are recruiting like crazy. Any mil SAR guy will need to be out the RAF/RN and able to work for Bristows THIS year or they have well and truly missed the boat. The managed path is a myth to stop people pvr'ing.

Check with Bristows. The RAF guys will almost certainly not see a SAR seat unless they are prepared to work for years as a low paid co.


Don't take my word for it, check for yourself. I did.

Hedski 31st Mar 2013 20:40

Not sure which co's are low paid now that Bond management have changed and caught up with the rest to prevent rated P2's leaving. As for that work of fiction the RAF created, it must be as they never created the existing one, useless as it is. That despite senior MoD officials promising jobs for the boys.....:ugh:
The hours on type are a contractual requirement, it's always been the case in CivSAR for both P1's and P2's.
2 machines per base is the figure quoted, every base that is. As it stands the current S92 bases averaged 97-98% plus serviceability over the last 5 and a half years.

Ticked all the boxes 31st Mar 2013 20:47

All the mil sar guys will get a chance to ask Bristow at their road shows. If there really is to be no managed path or reasonable route into a relatively well paid job (co or capt) then watch the pvrs fly in and the whole wheels will come off an already barely manageable manpower plot. Could be interesting!

212man 31st Mar 2013 21:15


Check with Bristows. The RAF guys will almost certainly not see a SAR seat unless they are prepared to work for years as a low paid co.
Top of scale Flt Lt is about 45,000 and Sqn Ldr about 57,000. Even with flying pay on top, starting as an SFO is likely to be a pay rise!

Baldeep Inminj 31st Mar 2013 21:49

Incorrect. Plenty of PA flt lt's on over 70k, some on 75k plus. Check the payscales online. And as PA, there is no flying pay...it's all pensionable.

[email protected] 31st Mar 2013 21:59

Baldeep - excellent name btw, took me a couple of readings to get it;) is correct ref PA pay.

212man 31st Mar 2013 22:08


. Check the payscales online. And as PA, there is no flying pay...it's all pensionable.
I did! Clearly the MOD websites are inaccurate (here's an examples http://www.raf.mod.uk/community/getm...F211CF1B131779)

Ah, just found the PA scales! http://www.raf.mod.uk/community/getm...1B9BC7740EE0B6

Norma Snockers 31st Mar 2013 22:19

212man, the first link had the more up to date rates for PA spine, you just had to scroll down further :) (page A-6)

212man 31st Mar 2013 22:27

NS - so it does! It also lists the SP(F) rates - how do they tie into the PA concept? Thanks

Norma Snockers 31st Mar 2013 22:33

212man, they don't, hence the higher rates of pay in the PA spine. The biggest difference is that PA pay is ALL basic pay, so it is all pensionable :)
SP(F) is classed as additional pay and therefore doesn't count in a normal Flt Lt aircrews pension.

212man 31st Mar 2013 23:00

So presumably the Spec Aircrew concept has been subsumed into this PA spine scale? Jeez - blink and you miss it!

ericferret 31st Mar 2013 23:24

The PVR's might fly in but unless something has changed they do not have to be accepted do they?

Not an ideal situation to have unhappy people flying, however I am sure that the professionalism we have heard so much about on the SAR thread will prevail.

After all when you sign on and take Betty's shilling you are doing so as a member of the armed forces not as for example a SAR pilot. Bars on PVR have been applied before. An example being the army bar on aircraft technicians leaving by PVR as Lynx was comming in to service due to the requirement for more staff.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in respect of the hours required is that such things are set in conjunction with insurers. They lower time the pilot the higher the premiums.
I wonder if the aircraft are being insured commercially or whether the government is offering some form of indemnity.

jimf671 1st Apr 2013 00:01


... I wonder if the aircraft are being insured commercially or whether the government is offering some form of indemnity.

ITT Schedule 7.6, Required Insurances:

Part 1
1. Property Damage "All Risks" Insurance
2. Third Party Public Liability Insurance
3. Motor Vehicle Insurance
Part 2
1. Aircraft Hull "All Risks" Insurance
2. Aircraft Hull War Risks Insurance
3. Aviation Liability Insurance (including Products Liability)
4. Errors and Omissions Liability Insurance for Paramedics

Thomas coupling 1st Apr 2013 01:35

For goodness sake, it's MANAGED TRANSITION.

Secondly, the ad is asking for 250hrs on type...where's the 500hrs on type come from?

jayteeto 1st Apr 2013 07:45

Don't panic too much, whatever job you take on leaving the services is GENERALLY going to mean a pay cut. As a police/AA onshore captain, you are looking around the 45-50k (ish) figure all in, no flying pay. One of these so called offshore low-paid co-pilots will not be too far from that figure as a starting salary. A pension certainly offsets that difference as well.
Unless you have a mansion to pay for, this is not a bad old wage in civvie street, you just get used to the higher military money and think you actually deserve it. Once you make offshore captain, you can resume bathing in ass's milk. :ok:

jimf671 1st Apr 2013 08:48

Damn the pay scales. The ones I want hovering above me are the ones who just want to fly. I know they're out there. Bristow will let them do that in a really interesting way until they are 60.

I've met the ones who go on and on about what they could be earning somewhere else every time they get a cup of coffee in their hand and do so miss the boarding school allowance. Well crack on mate, we'll have a whip round for your bus fare and remember to wash your cup before you leave.

onesquaremetre 1st Apr 2013 09:02


They are hiring NOW to fill their SAR slots, putting guys on the oil and gas run, to get the hours up. They are recruiting like crazy.
Having a few hundred hours on type flying to oil rigs hardly makes a qualified pilot a SAR captain.


Check with Bristows. The RAF guys will almost certainly not see a SAR seat unless they are prepared to work for years as a low paid co
This would be crazy. Why would they ignore the years of experience someone has built up as a SAR captain when it's absolutely essential for Bristow to prove to doubters that they can adequately replace military SAR?

[email protected] 1st Apr 2013 09:13

212man - the transition from spec aircrew to PA spine happened about 10 years ago - shortly before the new pension system AFPS 05.

Neither were difficult decisions to make - more money now AND more money later........a no-brainer really and it made a huge difference to a Flt Lt pension.

As for PVRs - theoretically they can hang on to you for as long as they like but I'm not sure that has ever been applied or tested - normally the maximum wait is 12 months (or 6 months if you are over 50).

If the managed transition doesn't work and mil guys are offered poor terms and conditions then they may try to PVR and be held which (if not on PA) loses them flying pay. Morale will go down the tubes and the number of stress-related groundings will go up leaving bigger and bigger holes in the manning plot.

This will be a significant flight safety risk which is why it is in everyone's interests to make the transition work.

Trying to screw over ex-mil with reduced wages (because they have pensions) will mean the good guys will go for other options leaving the contractor to pick up only those who have no other choices - not trhe best way to ensure a smooth transition retaining high quality SAR experience around the UK is it?

I don't think any of us would have a problem with sitting in the co's seat offshore for 6 months to gain hours on type providing the guarantee of the captaincy at a specific SAR flight thereafter was honoured. That way you satisfy your hours on type requirement, get to know the individuals and retain the SAR experience and enthusiasm you hired them for in the first place.

All that is required is mutual trust and honesty.

Baldeep Inminj 1st Apr 2013 09:47

Onesquaremetre

I agree wholeheartedly with you...didn't say I thought the Bristows way made sense, just that it is so. They are a Union Shop, don't forget...the day you join is more important than quals.

And remember too they have a LOT of ex-mil SAR guys flying the rigs, with seniority and hours. Who do you think will get the SAR slots?

I reiterate, RAF SAR guys can get a Bristows SAR slot, but they need to leave the RAF yesterday in order to do it. Bristows need to be manned, trained and operationally ready in every sense, BEFORE mil SAR dies. Those still on mil SAR will have well and truly missed the boat.

Flaxton Flyer 1st Apr 2013 10:08

Crab said - "The only way is forward now to make it as good as it can possibly be for the sake of the 0.1 % of those taxpayers who really will need the best service in the world"

Given that the Uk population is around 62 million, by my reckoning that would mean SAR carried 62,000 patients last year. I never realised it was so dangerous living here...


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