You could ask who's providing the external* audit of Mil SAR?
Or perhaps more pertinantly the current Coast Guard SAR provision?

*And no Flying Standards visits don't count because it's the Mil auditing the Mil, I'm sure you wouldn't be happy about Bristow saying their SAR operation was great because they'd checked it themselves.

I thought we were talking about the (lack of) need for a managed transition?!

I see no reason to expect a loss in capability. In fact, it will actually be enhanced by the new aircraft and facilities. The new bases will be stood up with the same standard as the bases very soon to be operating under GAPSAR. The contractor will be responsible for maintaining these standards. Surely that's enough? Or are the mil SAR aircrew suggesting that they, and only they, could be the future guardians of SAR standards?

I don't think anyone is suggesting anything of the sort but checks and balances have to exist in the public domain nowadays - although we don't want to descend into the box-ticking madness that prevents the NHS from doing its job because there are so many govt pressures to achieve maximum waiting times and minimum wasted bed spaces.

One problem with the perceived capability gap is that there has been no visibility, from either side of the fence, of what the other side do or don't do other than anecdotal information passed by those who have seen both sides.

Therefore, it is easy to understand the concern that exists when the majority of UK SAR players (currently mil), who know exactly what we do and how we do it, look across to the existing (not future) civilian providers with different equipment levels (yes, including NVG and 330 radar) and wonder how, with the need to fill another 6 flights with qualified, capable and current SAR crews, it will be achieved without the managed transition.

I guess the managed transition will happily work for the mil rearcrew because they don't need licences, IRs, glass cockpit time etc etc. they can also provide the much needed continuity and local knowledge that some posters say is essential (although its incredible how if this is so vital, mil crews have been permitted to hold shifts at other locations or be tasked by ARCC outside of their own patch on so many occasions!) :mad:

There is also a shortage of current civ SAR experienced rearcrew in UK to fill the future contract.

I can genuinely see it being a bigger problem for mil pilots. There are plenty of civ pilots operating in N sea and elsewhere who have a SAR background, either civil or mil. Not all of them will want to go back to SAR but some will. There are also the ex mil pilots being taken on right now to gain type experience in the N sea too.

I can see those mil pilots lucky enough to be given the managed transition will end up in co pilot jobs in the less popular locations waiting to fill dead men's shoes for capt slots...

Bing

You miss the point. A public service, and a popular and successful one at that, is being replaced by a private one. Directors' bonuses and shareholders' dividends will suddenly become part of SAR and that is something that a lot of hard up taxpayers have difficulty with in this day and age. For these payments to be justified, the new service has to prove to those who will be holding it to account that it has adequately replaced the capability of the previous providers. This can't be done simply with rescue statistics, line checks and KPIs. Experienced operators need to be able to independently evaluate what the front line is capable of and where it is falling short.

QHI

Er, no. Self-policing will just not be acceptable for the taxpayer.

and what SAR experience do they have? And what SAR experience will they get in the N Sea?

I don't really, I assume that the DfT will have to ensure the contract is being fulfilled as required which will involve some form of audit. My slightly oblique point was that presumably this already happens for the CHC Coast Guard contract, unless they're very trusting, so logically an extension of that system could take place.

The anomaly I was trying to point out was that the current Mil SAR isn't, as far as I know, externally audited which raises the question of how to prove the new system is or isn't meeting the standards of the old one if there isn't a baseline to judge against.

Some mil SAR pilots are now ex-mil and went to the North Sea and elsewhere some time ago. They might not be currently operating in the SAR role, but the relevant skills and experience, gained earlier in their career don't just disappear. After all, there are pilots out there with more relevant experience than some mil pilots might like to admit.

Some of them might even be current and experienced on the S-92 which would give them a useful head start over present military crews planning to leave the service to join the project. They will have to learn a new aircraft. For some that might come as a bigger hurdle than they have realised.

However unpalatable it might be for some, there will be a learning and settling in period for all, irrespective of their background. Hopefully, counterproductive attitudes / egos can be left well behind! If so, everyone can fit in and do a really good job.

Now, where's that dusty old coasting out and pre-winching checklist..... :E

So will it be - 'right 1 o'clock easy, easy. Steady' or 'boat axis, forward and right 2,1, steady'?
Do you prefer boat axis or aircraft axis? A small point agreed but which method will/do Bristow use?

Shy - I know one or 2 of the ex-mil SAR types who went a while ago to the N Sea but Spanish was talking about those ex-mil who are being taken on now - to my knowledge they are mostly ex - SH not ex-SAR, hence my comments.

I know of at least a dozen ex mil SAR pilots who have been taken on in the last two months. This is why I was previously asking about banging out early and getting into the company!

Ex SH
 

Crab,
You saying that the RAF can't turn out SH pilots capable of becoming SAR pilots??:D

Would imagine that after a 6-12month work up as a co & SAR commander under training that they will be just great in the role. Great team players and versatile to boot. Open minded individuals that have gone civ already in anticipation of having you as their co-pilot. :ok:

No, we have been turning SH pilots into SAR captains for many years - SARTU refresher, then SK OCU then 6 months as LCR then another year as CR then Op Captaincy - about 2 years flash to bang on average;)

I have no problem sitting LHS with less SAR experienced captains in the RHS - it's my job most of the time:ok:

Crab,

You see, that is why the MOD is too expensive. 2 years for an experienced pilot to go live?

Civilian world 3 months Type rate and get 50+ hours (that can be SAR role training on a non-operational unit) Depending on the area of operation and having a winter in that area 6-12 months could feasibly see a pilot of sound background ability attain his command.

Come on...you lot even got WW his command in less time and he wasn't 2-3000 hr ex SH pilot.

I'm sure you will be a great trainer, without the RAF BS behind you that you are obliged to follow:ugh: we hope you can turn out our pilots fit for SAR;)

NRDK - it's not that different a time-scale - remember I am talking about starting from a SARTU refresher - 1-2 months and then the SK OCU which normally takes 9 months. It is too long but the system is where it is and poor serviceability doesn't help. Once they hit the front-line, most ex-SH guys and gals will get to captaincy in a year to 15 months.

ISTR WW was 18 months or just under which is about right for an ab-initio (especially a good one).

The problem is that the SH guys on N Sea duties will be getting glass cockpit time but little useful SAR trg - once the Inverness training setup is running it will give all the requisite SAR and NVG training on type but until the contract starts, there will only be 2 bases where they can fly operationally to gain real experience. Who will move out of Stornoway and Sumburgh to make room for new copilots to cut their teeth and where will they go?

Once the contract is up and running, then it is a different ball-game and guys and gals can go straight from the S92/AW189 type conversion to a flight and crack on with on the job training - where, after an appropriate period, they can be selected for captaincy based on a proven track record on SAROPs and regular training.

"where, after an appropriate period, they can be selected for captaincy based on a proven track record on SAROPs and regular training"

and a vacant slot!

NRDK NRDK I agree entirely.

CRAB Nine Months?? When did that happen ffs??
If that's now the case, then added to the Valley Gin Palace, the SARF Commander and his 'whirlpool' of Wing Commanders and 'satisfaction' of Squadron Leaders (collective nouns), I am not at all surprised that Mil SAR has been deemed too expensive; it bloody well is AND there's crap serviceability to boot!

Just for info, I went SAR at Valley in the olden days after two tours SH (a healthy dose of RAFG followed by a distinctly unhealthy dose of SHDNI (or SHNFI). SARTS (as was) had Whirlwinds so I never did the 'long course'. I was on shift as a Wessex captain (D cat) within three weeks, following training officers checks with the Sqn QHI. After eight years I converted to Sea Kings (4 months) and seven months later was off to the Falklands for four months as an Op Capt. Eight years on SK saw me back on Wessex and then when the 3a finally appeared after three years, a week at the sim (no aircraft to fly!) found me back as captain on the first SK shift at Valley.

The actual job, and the capabilities of the crews, has not changed significantly since I handed my watch back. So, what went wrong? :(

Al-bert,

I'm afraid your fears are well founded. In my opinion the RAF SAR Force, to some extent, has become a victim of it's own success and a classic case of empire-building. There are those (not all) that would have you believe that the art of SAR flying is so highly skilled and requires so much practice that in recent times the approved training path for anyone crossing over from SH has meant 2+ years to achieve captaincy. The hierarchy then seem surprised that they have manning issues! It's no wander the Royal Navy sometimes are bemused at the RAF's approach and a commercial operator will clearly do things very differently. I hope that those guys who decide to jump ship, and deserve a seat, are welcomed with open arms but I wouldn't count on it.

llamaman - don't confuse the empire-building (of which there has been a great deal) with the continued push to maintain the highest standards of flying in SAR.

There are plenty of us with no career aspirations who pride ourselves in keeping the standard of the front-line SAR crews as high as possible - that doesn't happen by itself nor does it happen by sitting on your laurels saying 'this is the way we have always done it so that is fine'.

I have been fortunate to work with some outstandingly professional individuals from all ranks and specialisations in the RAF SAR Force and, despite the naysayers, our track record in maritime, mountain, inland and urban search and rescue is outstanding.

Who else has a standards organisation that does no-notice Opevals, checks every SAR flt every 18 months, are specifically requested by overseas govts to assess their own SAR capability and monitor both the training organisations and the operational ones?

Doesn't happen by accident and it continues despite the empire building BS.

Spanish Waltzer - bullseye:(

I think, as the dust settles, it will become obvious that there is a gulf between civvy and the mil approach to doing SAR when it comes to qualifications and standards. We are now seeing tensions rise as the mil come to realise that they can't simply "transition" to Long SAR without going through all the hurdles:
ATPLH
IR
Selection
Type training
On job training
Captain.

For many, this will come as a shock because it involves starting from scratch and no exemptions. The route will be tortuous and the target will continue to move.

Crab: Be warned, Those in the mil who understand what is about to happen - have already jumped ship and become offshore drivers to tick all of the above, ready to transfer across to Bristow when the time comes. The RN is haemorrhaging SAR pilots at an unacceptable rate, but they realise that the MT could be too prolonged.
Many could be sidelined by the time they wait for PVR details and pension rights.
Bristow are recruiting NOW. Have you already missed the boat?