It is true that milSAR have set the bar very high but that is 30% capability and 70% ethos. 'Per ardua ad astra' and 'Si vis pacem, para bellum' writ large and bright in a way that puts defence of the people of the UK into its widest possible context. :ok:

Let's remember that none of the flights that were operating up to 31st March 2015 from any of the four providers had the capability to comply with the demanding technical specification of this new contract. Any delays and temporary short-comings should be viewed in that context.

We should also remember that the DBIS, DfT, AW and the CAA have a share of the responsibility for where we are now.



La oss gå flyr. :cool:

I don't want to get involved in the mud slinging but that can't be true in Inverness - there is no night this time of year. They will have to wait until the end of August to get any low level stuff done. I know, 'cos I wos there.

I'm in Welsh Wales :)

I was at Lossie for 5 years too.

Hopefully, nobody has a plan for summer NVG training when it is Sumburgh's turn. :ugh:

Was always the way, we need you to be current for night jobs but there is no night so there won't be any night jobs...but you should remain current. That's SAR training statistics in a nutshell.

Took a lot of senior officers a long time to comprehend this.

Not really - we rejigged the quarterly periods to remove the need for a lot of summer night flying many years ago and a 90 day night currency was hardly demanding to maintain.

Just because the 'centre' doesn't get night for the summer doesn't mean the rest of the UK is the same.

Perhaps a little foresight and understanding of SAR training might have led to a southern base -Newquay for example- being used for NVD training instead of Stornoway or Inverness.

The NVD training has been done at the individual flights. Good point though.

So is there someone suitably qualified and experienced at delivering NVD training, from basic through to advanced SAR, providing that training at each flight?

If so, where did all that experience come from?

An NVD team doing the rounds.

I hope you guys have a good week Jerry Can. :ok:

Thanks Jim.

You mean - Bristow are doing the NVG training in exactly the same way as we did it in RAFSAR when we first got goggles? Oh that will never do :}

with recent front-line SAR NVD training experience and proven track record of basic and advanced NVD techniques???

Yes, very experienced indeed. Fully qualified and very very good.

Oh Crab; you old wind-bag. Give it a rest why don't you.

pity there isn't a like button on this forum :bored:

A pity indeed.

Imagine my surprise - we're back to personal insults when relevant questions are asked about the training.

There are a fixed number of people who have recent, relevant SAR NVD experience - not just teaching on an OCU , but operational front-line SAR tuition - and few of those have taught basic NVD as well.

Most of the ones I can think of are either still in the military or only just leaving to join Bristow and somehow I doubt that any homegrown civsar talent has any comparable level of experience.

I sincerely hope the training the new contract guys and girls get is top-notch because they aren't going to get anything like the amount of continuity training that RAFSAR was allowed.

It's a perishable skill and mixed white light and NVD takes practice, especially in crappy weather, blowing snow, recirculating spray etc.

Being an ex-Afghan warrior has little validity in the SAR environment and the hard won lessons from years of milsar should not be ignored - who would imagine that flying through a height bug without acknowledging it would be acceptable practice on NVD? Is that a Bristow SOP perchance?????

Try to do this sort of stuff on the cheap and it will bite someone on the ar*e - I don't care who does it, just that it is done properly.

It has been done properly by credible and skilled trainers. I understand your concerns but it doesn't have to be crap because it is civilian. I'm not spouting off having only experienced one side of SAR. I have a good amount of mil SAR experience and I can reassure you that the training was delivered by people with the right experience and it was well delivered and comprehensive. We didn't have a dark stormy night tick in the RAF but we trained people well, highlighted benefits and pitfalls of NVG and trusted people to use their judgement on that night to end all nights and to know their limits. Some Captains/crews were more capable than others and could do jobs that other crews wouldn't attempt at all but we didn't knock them for it as that is good airmanship. It's no different now. The kit is excellent and the aircraft is very well setup for NVG ops too.

At some stage Crab is going to have to get over the fact that Bristow didn't recruit him as their saviour to teach all things SAR. Of course Operational SAR experience is a relevant factor but it is not the be all and end all. The right people teaching a relevant package to capable crews and aircraft counts for a lot. Suggesting that 'ex-Afghan warriors' have little validity in the SAR environment demonstrates a lack of understanding of transferable (and relevant) aviation skills. Of course, having a winch fitted adds an extra dimension but operating in big mountains in very poor weather (and light levels) whilst managing a crew under sometimes extreme pressure is, I would argue, highly apposite.

And, believe it or not, many non-SAR types have demonstrated extremely good winching skills when required to do so (either through training or on Ops). In my opinion, part of the downfall of milSAR (specifically RAF SAR) is that an empire was built on the perpetuated belief that SAR is such a highly skilled discipline that nobody else can do it and you need to train day in day out to remain competent.

The Bristow approach is different (not necessarily better or worse) and many of us didn't want to see the end of MilSAR but that is where we are and the clock isn't going to be turned back. There will no doubt be some early 'blips' (the military has certainly never been 'blip-free') but maybe it's time to show the new guard a bit of support instead of a constant stream of negativity.