Latest update from USAF including video of briefing.
(still only preliminary information) Air Force begins CV-22 crash investigation | hurlburt, investigation, air - Northwest Florida Daily News |
It Appears as if the Political element has already been addressed
The Air Force has launched an investigation of Wednesday’s incident, but if it turns out anything like the Air Force’s last V-22 crash probe, politics and denial could obscure the truth. In 2010, an Air Force V-22 crashed in Afghanistan, killing four people. The crash investigator, Brig. Gen. Donald Harvel, concluded that engine failure could have been a factor. But his superiors, eager to protect the high-tech aircraft’s reputation, allegedly leaned on Harvel to shift the blame to the V-22′s crew. “There was absolutely a lot of pressure to change my report,” Harvel told Air Force Times.
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Bottom line is that if you take the time to actually read the report, there was not a single shred of hard evidence that there was an engine failure. Suspicions based on suspect observations do not yield a factual conclusion. Pretty simple. I'm sure there was a lot of pressure to change a factually unsubstantiated conclusion, as there should be. The pilot was indeed flying far outside the envelope once again, much too fast at that altitude and approach distance. Occam's razor.
And Jack, if you're going to repost "contributions" from our esteemed "objective" colleague David Axe, at least have the common decency to link to his article or source your quote. |
Unless I am mistaken....did not one of he pilots state there was a loss of engine power just prior to the crash in Afghanistan?
As the CVR and Data Recorders were not recovered....it would be hard to state with definity what the engines were doing would it not? Just saying! So one's suggestion it was all Pilot Error might be a bit hard to substantiate in my opinion. When a General Officer is willing (in this political Air Force extant) to state publicly he was pressured to change his findings (during what is billed to be an independent and objective investigation) I would have to view such final findings with a jaundiced eye at the least. |
There was specifically no report of any abnormal engine issues from the crew or anyone in contact with them
Generals clash on cause of April Osprey crash - Air Force News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Air Force Times •No one onboard the Osprey or in radio contact with it heard any discussions about engine problems or warnings from the cockpit. •An analysis of the recovered left engine showed it was working. The right engine was not recovered. •The V-22 Joint Program Office, which oversees Air Force and Marine Corps Ospreys, concluded engine failure was highly unlikely. •The crew made several errors, including the pilot flying too high and too fast in his approach; the failure to obtain a weather report warning of a 17 mph tailwind; distraction over unexpected lighting at the landing zone; and self-imposed pressure to make the mission a success. Now heres a real interesting tidbit I just noticed: (from same article linked above) The April 9 crash in Afghanistan was the first loss of a CV-22 Osprey in combat. Two of the three cockpit crew members — pilot Maj. Randell Voas, 43, and flight engineer Senior Master Sgt. James Lackey, 45 — died attempting a night landing at a desert landing zone. The co-pilot survived; he has not been indentified. Also killed were a soldier and a contractor — two of 16 passengers in the cargo compartment. Maj. Brian Luce and Tech. Sgt. Christopher Dawson have been released Eglin Hospital, where they were taken after the crash on Eglin Air Force Base’s reservation. Capt. Brett Cassidy, Staff Sgt. Sean McMahon and Tech. Sgt. Edilberto Malave were in stable condition at Sacred Heart Hospital in Pensacola on Friday... Luce, one of the pilots, also was a co-pilot in the deadly CV-22 Osprey crash in Afghanistan in April 2010, said Master Sgt. Kristina Newton, a spokeswoman for Hurlburt. |
If I were Luce....I would take up a different kind of work....as the third time is the charm so I am told!
He probably was the Aircraft Commander on the second crash....and the Co-Pilot on the first crash. Fate is a terrible and sinister force.....but a dear Friend when it is favors you. |
Wow. Glad he survived his second brush with death.
You'd think that Maj. Luce would've learned the first time. But nooooooo... I'll bet you real money that he never sets foot inside a V-22 ever again. Unless it's on permanent display in the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola. In the section called, "Mistakes We've Made." |
Yeah he'll probably retire from flying and spend all his time posting on the internet..
Ive worked with plenty of guys that have crashed more than once, ive had one myself. Im sure he'll put it behind him and get back to work. "3rd times a charm" ...you guys sound like a couple of old ladies. |
Pilot Error was it Tuks?
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Well this time he can not claim memory loss. The recorders all survived.
TC |
"Yeah he'll probably retire from flying and spend all his time posting on the internet...like I do." And hey, I'm not retired. Why, just this morning I spent some quality time out earning money and cheating death in a Sikorsky S-55 that is...yikes!...older than me. (Maybe older than SAS too! Definitely older than a certain N. Lappos who wasn't even a glimmer in his dear daddy's eye when this one was forged from steel at the iron works in Bridgeport, Connecticut.) I only thought I knew how to fly until checking out in this thing. (And do they even let me fly one of the two turbine conversions we have? Nooooooooooo, I get stuck with the round motor that I can barely kick-start on a good day anymore. Eh- it may be my own fault. I may have said *something* about having all the damn turbine time I ever needed or wanted. Teaches me to open my big fat mouth...) But I digress. And I wonder... After all these years, the venerable S-55 is still dogging around, giving relative "youngsters" like me a chance to fly something my father thought was modern and new! back in 1954 Think the V-22 will still be around 60 years hence? Somehow I doubt it. They'll all have probably crashed and burned by then. That seems to be their modus operandi. If Maj. Luce is smart...and we sincerely hope he is and is not permanently grounded...he'll spend the rest of his days flying something safer than a tiltrotor. And anyways, the question was never answered: What kind of "gunnery" can a V-22 do? Somebody finally figure out a way to mount a forward-shooting gun on that thing? Fifty cal. on the wings timed to fire through the proprotors, perhaps? The answer to this ought to be good! |
Yea....I am not very experienced....never done the crash thing....or even a chargeable incident.....guess I still have something to learn yet....but alas....I retired before I got to that chapter of the book.
Hand cranked S-55.....oh my...that brings back memories of Iron Machines and Iron Men! I hate to admit it....but they were still in service when I was a nubbin learning my trade at Rucker. Used to watch them trundle off down the heliport at Hanchey and disappear out of sight at the end to the south.....and finally re-appear way off in the distance still below takeoff elevation....blades looking like they were going to clap hands. That was with one instructor, two students, a bag of gas....and a verbal message for cargo. A few rides with a Maintenance Test Pilot convinced me there was a reason I had picked Chinooks for my ride of choice. Almost two years later....the Oklahoma National Guard was still flying them operationally.....that would be 1970 as I recall. Bristow attempted to lure me into doing a Whirlwind Conversion but Jack Trigg ran out of Beer money before he could get me drunk enough to agree to do so. Good thing probably or I would have found myself off to Nigeria twenty years earlier than i wound up going. Now FH.....when you start talking about real Sikorsky Iron....the old Moe JV (S-56 or CH-37 Mojave) to the unwashed....now that was a horse sure enough. Two really really big Pratt & Whitney Round Many Pistoned engines....drum of lube oil in the cabin....ladder up into the cockpit....now that was a Man's machine. Igor builds helicopters! |
FH, if you go back a few posts, you'll see two options for gunnery already mentioned.
As to Major Luce ... his decisions to keep on flying will probably be best addressed after the USAF has finished its accident investigation. I hope he heals from whatever injuries he has sustained in the mishap, and am pleased to note that the V-22 is crashworthy, at least to a certain extent. Regarding how a bird ends up on its back: lots of ways. |
Somehow I doubt it. They'll all have probably crashed and burned by then. That seems to be their modus operandi.
The CH53 had a worse week in July 1985 than the V22's entire operational history to this point with 4 incidents and 8 lives lost. There have been 3 incidents in 5 years of operation for the V22, and you think they'll all be gone to attrition over 60. :rolleyes: |
Sans.....you over look the common link in almost every one of the events....they were operated by Marines.
If we eliminated that one cause....think how short the list would be? FH's comment was a bit over the top.....but so is your reply as it would suggest the Marines have problems operating their 53's which is not true either. The 53 in all of its variants has been an excellent machine...starting clear back in the Vietnam War and continuing on today and with the new "K" model...well into the future. The Osprey is just getting started and has yet to prove itself as have the 53....46, 47, 60, and other long serving aircraft. A side note.....the Military Channel had a program on the introduction of the Osprey to Iraq and was filmed on site with the Marine Squadron that was deployed. What was interesting was seeing how the first big OP they performed had been planned for three full days ahead of time, with dozens and dozens of hours of planning, briefings, and preparation. The security element was made up of Bell UH-1N's and AH-1W's from the same launch site. The Ospreys went off high and wide while the helicopters went to the LZ's and set up for the Ospreys. Hard to see the real advantage in time or loads carried due to that. Perhaps by being high.....they Ospreys were out of range of small arms fire and light AAA or MANPADS....but that would be the only difference. Much was made of the Osprey's ability to land in dusty conditions....but with the downwash it creates....it does need that capability. Also I found it interesting to see the Ramp gun being the only defensive armament on the Osprey. I compare its arc of fire compared to the 53's setup of two side door guns and a ramp gun....meaning coverage from just aft of the nose of the aircraft all the way around to the other side of the nose of the aircraft.....which would be far more useful and effective than just the tail gun on the Osprey. But as we are told....Ospreys and the tactics employed by them doesn't plan for landings in Hot LZ's....right? |
Wow! All those '53 accidents/incidents since 1977! (Except that it looks like two of them - reported on July 12 and July 13, 1985 respectively might be the same one.) Thirty-five years and how many aircraft produced?
Sans, you might better have posted all Bell 206 accidents since introduction of the type. That's the ship I normally fly (aside from this wacky summer job flying the S-55). If you'd done that I might never want to get into a 206 again! But yet somehow the Bell 206 was rated the "safest aircraft ever produced." Not safest helicopter, safest aircraft. How can this be? Sans, you note that the V-22 has only had 3 "incidents" in the last five years. But this means nothing. It's curious that you minimize (trivialize?) fatal accidents by calling them incidents. In fact, Wikipedia notes seven "incidents" in the last five years if we widen the scope of the word. However, none of this changes the fact that, unlike the Bell 206, the tiltrotor is still an inherently unsafe, defective design. Has been since Bell started messing with the concept in 1953. Always will be. History will prove this to be so. V-22 production will *not* continue beyond what's already been allocated. There will be no new tiltrotor designs produced. The small number of V-22's that do exist will be long gone in a few years - much fewer than 60. And that's okay: I can wait. |
However, none of this changes the fact that, unlike the Bell 206, the tiltrotor is still an inherently unsafe, defective design. Welcom to Aviation, FH. I know a few of the folks who died in those CH-53 accidents. SAS, while I appreciate that you were attempting to be humorous, I'll counter your jab at the Marines with the long standing Army theory of helicopter pilot training: high school to flight school to the grave. :p (There appears to have been some improvement in recent history ... ) FWIW, Sans: a CH-53 (Japanese version) in Japan that went down (suspected swashplate issues) doesn't look to be on the list. Some folks believe that the mishap at Sikorsky in 1996, the one in Japan, and the one in Corpus Christi in 2000 had the same root cause: that newfangled dry swashplate bearing. (Before the bearing monitor panel finally got implemented ... ) Above considered, the CH-53 is an amazing machine, and has done good service for our nation. I hope the K keeps that legacy alive. |
Lone.....don't go looking for an insult where there was none.....to the Marines that is. My barb was pointed elsewhere.
Brother Dixson has discussed the 53 crash at the factory here at pprune in the past and also other places. I do not recall the whole of his explanation of what happened but as I recall the aircraft was in a stable hover at something like 200 feet (maybe) and for some reason rolled inverted and crashed. If John sees this he will probably weigh in this. As to the High School, Flight School, Grave comment.....it was very true....expecially during the Vietnam War when about 2500 Helicopter Pilots were killed.....including all services. Even if one took a detour through College for four years....way too many good Men wound up dead. I care not to insult any service about hose losses....or the ones that are happening yet today in Afghanistan. Last time I checked we all worked for the same Uncle. |
FH's comment was a bit over the top.....but so is your reply as it would suggest the Marines have problems operating their 53's which is not true either. Thirty-five years and how many aircraft produced? Sans, you note that the V-22 has only had 3 "incidents" in the last five years. But this means nothing. It's curious that you minimize (trivialize?) fatal accidents by calling them incidents. In fact, Wikipedia notes seven "incidents" in the last five years if we widen the scope of the word. |
1996 53E Accident
This was a brand new aircraft on a production hover test flight. The rotating swashplate bearing ( also brand new ) overheated, failed, then as the pitch links were dragged so as to be non-vertical, the main blades followed the pitch links and the blades contacted the tail. The aircraft fell in from approx. 200 ft, but hit upright. Sikorsky crew.
Thanks, John Dixson |
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