That's probably true because they would still be reading it :zzz:

Did think that three AW139 simulators with European approvals are around.*:ok:

I know of a very experienced (high time AW139 - more than 1500 hours on type alone) Check & Training Pilot who looked at a job with this company but of course they were paying peanuts.....so.....you know the rest!!!! It would seem that companies invest in aircraft but as always cut short on investing in training. If the company had booked training slots when they signed the purchase order, of course they would be accomodated at the Agusta training facility....its a matter of negotiation and planning, and acquiring experience. This type of helicopter has a habit of biting those who dont have experience or respect for its design characteristics, especially the tail low attitude. Its made me sit up and pay attention after operating other aircraft types. Nevertheless a powerful beast that is a pleasure to fly.....I have no issue with flying it. When Bristow and CHC have a few with tail problems only then will I sit up and take notice!!!

its 9m-waj
 

i've seen it in the paper..
thank god that it's no death incidence.

Isn't the ship fitted with an OEI training mode?

If yes, does anybody could explain how it reacts in case of mishap (low RRPM, real engine loss,...)?

gnz
 

gnz - yes it is fitted with an OEI Training switch. Its an excellent system, very realistic during the "fail" selection. Tq is limited on both engines when the switch is in use, if RRPM reduces to 87% or if either engine has a problem then the system will switch itself off.

TM

Thanks hihover,

I guess the Tq limitation in training mode is conservative.
Is the "supposed" maneuver (Helipad sim OEI landing), recoverable with 87% RRPM, in case of mishandling?
What's the automatic engine rating for the "wake up" engine?

gnz

Yes, it is easily recoverable, if the exercise is set up properly (AUM limits, safe trg area, take off brief etc etc). But remember, it still has to be flown out of the situation into which you put the aircraft. The system only detects adverse conditions and switches off the OEI Trg mode. Reversion is instantaneous, but you still have to fly it, either onto the ground or away from the ground. Bear in mind that - if the RRPM is drooping, an instant reversion to AEO will give you more power, but you will still have to recover RRPM in the normal manner.

Not sure what you mean in the last sentence. Both engines are running and sharing the load equally, only the indications on one of the displays is showing a failed engine, the other display shows actual engine outputs.

Hope this helps clarify.

TM

OEI training mode is disabled if;
NR drops below 87%, either engine flames out, either engine enters manual mode, an EEC problem, either engine mode selector is not in the flight position, or the Torque limiter is switched off.

gnz - there is no wake up engine, both engines are driving the rotor but with an artificial indication. The standard recovery with all FADEC training modes is surely - pull the lever!

About a decade ago I started a new job and was given my first OPC/LPC on what was a new type for me, the Squirrel 'N'. The training captain worked out the weights for the engine failure part of the sortie but he inadvertantly used the real Perf A graph, not the training weights graph. So we were quite a bit (!) too heavy and it was a very hot day.

It was interesting when he gave me the first engine failure...

Part L of Supplement 12 for Cat A Operations (AW139 RFM) has some performance "information" in it that someone thought was less than important.:hmm:
So does Supplement 12 Part C in its "Limitations" (applicable to only some of us apparently) section.:oh:


You can take a horse to water...

".... had taken the proactice hands on approach...... But make no mistake...."

Nice one Shell Management (Post #42), yet another post to your usual sarcastic standard - but why did you wait until Page 3?

Thanks all, that's clear now. Different philosophy than my EC' chopper : One engine Idled, ready to "wake up " with real OEI (hi or low, depending of the problem). But there's still the training perfs to comply with;)

Quote:
the worlds only two available full-motion AW139 simulators

business opportunity

Turns out Gulf Helicopters have taken up that business opportunity. Their sim is now UK CAA and Qatar CAA approved.

The Gulf sim is only certified for recurrent training - not initial - so that still leaves only the two level D sims in Italy and USA for type rating training.

Yes so I understand, no type training credits from the local authority. So GH still have the 10 or 5 hr exposure on the aircraft, plus any sim they may decide to do above the minimum hrs. It is IR rated so 3 hrs sim available of the 5 hr course. On an up the skill test for type rating and the IR skill test can be done in the sim.

Waiting for....
 

I'm Antonio G., and my total time on 139 is 2,400 hours (training, worldwide demos, operations in every kind of enviroments, and so on). Many many 139's pilots have been trained by my hands. I'm here asking myself: why don't we wait for evidences from FDR and CVR instead of talking and talking? Thank you.

Antongervax: First - welcome to Pprune. Let me introduce you to the way things are done on this particular forum "rotorheads":
We practice the art of "ppruning", which delicately put, means we discuss / dismember / research / opine / comment...all things to do with the professional world of rotary aviation.
You may discover (if you stay here long eneough) that the place is littered with some of the best people this industry has to offer. They are: global/experienced/wise.
The forum is (relatively) free from hinderance from the moderators, who in themselves are 'experts' in their own field, also.
The beauty of this site is that everyone can have a say and 'second guess' what happened. It's purely a reflection of what you would discover in virtually every crewroom/office/airbase in the world.....ENJOY, my friend :ok:

TC, this person is well known to many AW139 pilots. Note that he begins by telling everyone how good he is.

Anyone who has been unfortunate enough to have received training from Italian AW training pilots will know their modus operandi very well - they strut into the briefing room (inevitably late - with no apology) wearing a nice blue flying suit with a pretty cravat, sneer at you, point to the helicopter and say 'Lets go'.

If you ask for a pre-flight brief you get an even bigger sneer. Then during the flight when you have absolutely no idea what is happening due to the fact that you have not received a pre-flight brief they start to shout at you, wave their hands around a lot and swear in Italian. Net result is that you learn sweet FA. After landing (when they think that have proved beyond doubt that they are God's gift to aviation) they make sure that their nice blue flying suits and cravats are not creased and dismiss you with a sneer and a wave of the hand. No post flight brief - no nothing. A complete waste of time.

CRM? MCC? You must be joking. These people have no multi-crew experience apart from 200 hours in an R22 so have no idea about CRM. Most of them only have jobs because of the nepotism that is endemic at AW Italy. The sad thing is that operators are paying lots of money for this bull****. Rant over.

Epiphany.......

Did you deliberately leave out the bit about using the mobile phone to contact wife/girlfriend/mistress/tottie-of-the-day (actually, scratch wife now that I think of it) whilst aloft during training sortie/skills test or were you doing the decent thing and trying to soften the blow just the tiniest bit?! :E

Heliski,

I am not the least bit surprised. If I were the only one that had a bad experience with these 'instructors' then I would have thought that possibly it was just me so forget it. But I have heard the same story from so many different pilots - many of them very experienced TRE's who were horrified at the low standard of instruction they were given.

Capitano Gervaxiarsey and his ilk must take their share of the blame for the appallingly low standard of many AW139 pilots that I frequently have to fly with in various parts of the world. Many of them have absolutely no idea how to check basic pre-flight planning requirements such as performance and weight and balance.

This results in a situation where low-time AW139 pilots are attempting to perform training CAT A helipad OEI rejects at 800kg over max training weight, well out of aft C of G and find themselves running out of Nr and ideas, collapsing the landing gear, losing the tail rotor and somehow walking away from the $18,000,000 write-off.

And do you know what these pilots say when questioned why they did that? 'No one taught us how to read the graphs'. The 'instructors' who should have taught them were probably too busy fixing their cravats or talking to the mistress/making excuses to the wife.

Antongervax......why are you on a 'Rumour' network?

weeeee...........

...they start to shout at you, wave their hands around a lot and swear in Italian.

Come and see us in New Jersey, it's a different story.
Our flight suits are a darker shade of blue.:)

Mmmmm ...


...... Come and see us in New Jersey ....

I intend too ... and quite soon too (I hope) ... :D


And also I refer back to my post #40 of this thread ... :eek:


:E

Yes - they look really complicated!

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...c/139TNGWT.jpg

Regardless of the training, any TRE who uses a training mode without knowing how it works or how to calculate the performance limitations, probably shouldn't be in that seat.

Out of interest Epiphany, as a TRE on type, how quickly does the system exit training mode once 87% is reached, and is the recomended recovery from a low Nr situation to keep pulling? On the EC-155 and S-76C+ (which do actually place an engine in idle rather than simulating it) once the Nr hits it's lower limit (320 rpm on the EC-155) it doesn't budge any lower. The idling engine simply spools up and helps the driving engine. It's seamless and simple, but the only downside is that trainees don't realise they've mishandled the aircraft, because all they see is a nice gentle touchdown!

Ouch! :ouch:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22...3_453546_n.jpg

Oh dear, never twigged he might be one of the main proponents for such poor standards with Italian TRE's. I have heard from numerous quarters (some closer than you might think:suspect:) that there is a propensity towards self personification rather than CRM.
It doesn't help, though when the Italian CAA turn a blind eye does it?:mad:

The easiest way is to blame instructors. I learned under Antonio and he was a good teacher - preflight, debriefs. What i think is that if you are laisy to learn the machine, to understand it , and you think that you have a lot of experience so you can fly anything, things happen. Of course i also have complaints over some agusta instructors but you can always take the manual and read it and again and again. And to teach how to read graphs....:sad: how did you get your licence????

Well there was some stories, on same level, comming from Donauworth..... :ugh:
We are grown up people, if you not getting proper service, than ask for it.
To be in position to receive TR to play with AW139, you need to have some hours and some life experience :}

I feel 'mission creep' setting in on this thread, but here goes before the mods re-align it:uhoh:

wwingrotor: If everything could be done by manuals, then there would be no need for TRE's/instructors anywhere, would there? They do more than transfer technical knowledge, they add an holistic approach to the candidates experience. They give them confidence, teach them the practicalities of flying that particular machine.
It seems from an outsider perspective, that there are certain individuals out there who have been entrusted with the unique responsibilities associated with Instructing, but prefer to concentrate on promoting the kudos instead.

Mind you I suspect a lot of it is in their Italian genes (or should I say Jeans!):ooh:

Well, well … we started the thread discussing about what happened in Malaysia and passing through Gervasi we eventually came to the idea that Italians are bad pilots, bad instructors and so on… right?

As an Italian I’m extremely sorry to read these lines that I really hope are the idea of a very few out there.

I’m really sorry not to be trusted as a pilot just because of my nationality and, thanks God, this is not ! At all !

It’s not my intention to defend a single person but an entire group of professionals and, more than this, an entire country yes.

I also had my training in Agusta flying with an Italian instructor so professional and helpful that I use to keep bothering him every now and then when I need further clarifications about anything regarding A139.

I know of other colleagues from different countries being as happy as me about their training in Agusta and they also flew with Italian instructors so please let’s keep the mouth shut or try first to connect the brain to the mouth before offending a country that, if I don’t mistake, has, just to give a little example about the genes ( if you wish you can say jeans…), the best aerobatic team in the world.

Last but not least, the Agusta Training Academy had been run till a short time ago by a Brit so do not complain with Italians but ask the UK people what they have been doing in their period to pass their outstanding organization and standards to the poor illitterate Italians!

P.S. Tottigol I didn’t appreciate at all your darker color show off … !!!

Hmm, this seems to be getting a bit serious.....

You can't tar everybody with the same brush and I have to say, my one recurrency with an Italian instructor in Sesto was very good, it was a thorough workout and I certainly didn't feel short-changed at the end of my stint.

Just keeping a little balance in there!

Mmmmm ...

MirkoR ... Look ol' darling nobody has 'badmouthed' the Italian nation ... you are being just a bit too sensitive to the reaction of some very experienced 'pruners' who by and large have the experience to back up their opinions.

I myself have very recently had the very positive experience of flying with a couple of Italian nationals (relatively younger chaps) both ex italian military (one of whom flew Harriers with the Italian Navy) and I can only give praise to their skills, talent and attitude (and I quite liked them as people as well). :D

You do yourself a disservice by reacting in such a manner ... and in fact drop yourself into the same (Nationality) trap that you attempt to defend. :=

Most of us here on Pprune have many years of worldwide helicopter operational experience .... there are blokes we will fly with at anytime and anyplace .... there are also blokes we will run across busy traffic laden highways to avoid .... that is the way of personalities in aviation.

Get used to it ...... :E

TC, there is no thread creep here really as the accident is inextricably linked to the standard of AW instruction received by the crew.

212 - reversion should be instantaneous but recovery is assuming that the correct profile parameters are being flown, the aircraft is below max training weight, within C of G and the training captain is adequately trained and experienced on type.

When Nr reaches 80% it is not recoverable, the tail rotor is no longer effective and it is game over. This crew were very lucky that the AW139 is so well constructed that they were able to walk away from a >7g deceleration.

This accident is a perfect example of the formulae: Poor training + poor piloting skills + cultural attitudes = accident waiting to happen.

Sadly there will be more.

Mirko, the British have a saying: 'You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink'. To make it a little clearer for you - AW Italy is the horse and the water is organisational skills and standards. Even when the water is taken to the horse you still cannot make it drink - unless it wants to.

You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink'. ...

... That means is a complete waste of time keep discussing with you. :ugh:

Thank you for pointing this out.

Spinwing I do accept your reply but, as you can see, January, 6th, keeps pointing his finger against AW Italy that I'm wondering if he really knows it so well.

He should know they have a feedback procedure that allows anybody to write and report his comments in order to tune the system and, as I was told, this brought to kick somebody off the system who was not completely up to the standards.

I am happy heliski22 is also giving credit to these guys.

Malaysia’s Professional Way orders AW139 full-flight simulator | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source

:E

Regards
Aser

about italians..
 

Italians waving hands... cravat.. 200 hours of multicrew in a R22...

I did have a good experience at AWTA, nothing to blame.

Italians wave hands, it is a habit ; somebody else has habit of killing imself with alchool every weekend.... So what??

In my opinion there is nothing else than pro-pilot and no pro-pilot, despite their culture and origin.

Epiphany ,You don't really know what you are talking about.

I only comment of subjects that I have direct experience of and in this case I know exactly what I am talking about. I do not expect everyone to agree with me but I also know that sometimes the truth hurts.

I have received some poisonous personal messages by those too spineless or lacking in English language skills, or intimately involved with the AW training system to post them here.

Don't bother to send anymore.