T2B,

P3 air not sealing correctly can cause stagnated starts, but in this instance the fault appears to lie in the start electro valve.

I've just had a quick wizz through the troubleshooting manual to confirm.

Where is the aircraft based, maybe I can supply hands on help.

RWB2

I'll PM you :ok:

Sorted!
 

Well, after a month of investigation, the problem seems to have been the T4.5 thermo couple probes...

The engineers looked at the master control box, starter relays, the starter, electro start valves, FCU, lubrication pump, fuel valves, injectors, etc..

The problem was eventually found to be one or more of the T4 probes sending false temperature readings to the VEMD. During the start, despite apparently taking T4 up to 800 oC (and higher on occasion, for a few seconds), it was actually much cooler and it was this that caused the stagnation, usually at around 36% Ng.

A new T4.5 harness (obviously, you need to buy all 4 new probes...) and she's now back to form.

Just a heads up, in case other EC120s show similar symptoms - you might save yourself a few $000s on fruitless investigation. This intermittent problem originally affected only 1 in 10 starts, but it got progressively worse until it was happening 7 times out of 10 and usually only when cold. Thanks for all the suggestions :ok:

Electrical charging problem
 

So, intermittent problem has begun where the generator still works in both start / charge mode but intermittently no current is getting through to the battery. This gives "MAster Caution: Gen" and shortly afterwards the "Master Caution: Electronics". On/Off toggle GEN and ELEC RESET are not effective, though land and shut-down, it might come back fine.

I understand that the control of voltage flow to / from the battery is governed by the box behind the fuse panel in the cargo hold. This has 5 boards.

1. Anyone else had this problem?
2. Which of the boards / relays shoudl we investigate?
3. Does Eurocopter swap or fix individual boards?

Any other thoughts / ideas also welcome. We have checked all the wires and connections. Battery cap recently checked and is fine.

Thanks

EC120 throttle
 

How many positions does the EC120 throttle have?

Three?

Off - Start position(white line) - Flight

or there is another position for idle? if not what is the value of NG for idle ?

thank you...it seems strange but I can not understand it from the manual..

White mark is the position for starting. As you start you accelerate the throttle from starting throttle position to ground idle, the idle pin kicks in (N1 approx. 60%).

And the answer to #124 is.......

The whole electrical control box goes back as an exchange item. £5k. However, it did cure the problem.

Floats AD
 

The EASA issued item boils down to this:

EASA AD 2011-0185 (Part I & Part II) (Modification of floatation gear) due at 1213.1 A/F hours or 17/02/2013

The only problem is, when contacting Eurocopter they say "speak to Zodiac, we don't have the parts" and Zodiac says "we can fit your request into the line schedule for early March 2013". And both Eurocopter and Zodiac say "this is not an AOG matter, as you can fly without floats". That really depends on the type of work your machine is doing! From 17th of the month I am losing hours/income.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Does anyone else fancy joining an effort to ask EASA to extend the deadline to a point when the parts might actually be available? After all, the floats still work (recent inflation check)

Lane 2 on my VEMD has an intermittent fault whereby the output from the computer doesn't quite make it to the screen in a coherent form, which displays a snowstorm of interference - as though it can't quite 'lock on' to the right channel. The computer itself is working fine and all the data can be read through Lane 1. It's probably just a dodgy 2 cent diode that's corrupts the image output signal.

Exchange unit, sir? that'll be £5k please :ouch:

If you think maintenance is expensive, try having a crash.

Not the nicest of replies RW.....

Toptobottom, just a quick explanation that might shed some light. Screen 1 is the visual display of processor 1 and screen 2 the visual display of processor 2- 2 seperate computers. They each receive the primary info incase of a failure so you retain the primary info from the other processor. Each processor then have additional tasks ie 1 calculates the FLI and 2 The power check. So by excluding screen 2 you are excluding processor 2 which probably means processor 2 is gone. Unfortunately the processors can only be replaced by Thales thus the service exchange.

Exchange VEMD unit- 5k? that seems quite reasonable, the EDU we have in the A119 which is basically the same as the VEMD just not as well thought out, costs 55k per screen as a unit exchange, and if you think eurocopter are slow with the parts, you ain't seen nothing yet! We have been through 8 EDUs in 900hrs. :ugh:

VP - thanks for the info. The problem with my unit is that 'processor 2' is always working fine. It survives all the diagnostics tests and thinks it's displaying the info correctly. If I turn it off, screen 1 can scroll through all the primary info e.g. Ts & Ps, voltages, FLI, etc. on Screen 1 and when I keep screen 2 on and scroll, it will perform all the different functions perfectly, including a power check - it's just that you can't see it...

Whatsarunway - 8 EDUs in 900 hours?! Surely, that's a warranty job though? Even Agusta must realise that isn't acceptable?! 55k and huge waiting lists also aren't acceptable, but they know we don't have a choice... :mad:

Any one elaborate or correct my recent rumour that Eurocopter is set to scrap the B2 keep the B3e and turn the screws up on the power for the ec120 ( how much I don't know) so that it can actually lift full pax and fuel in the same universe

Interesting rumour. If they are listening to the market, they'd better scrap the B3e and go back to the B3+ - nobody wants to have a B3e after the trouble they had with it.

Bell did a mistake when ending their 206 (well, ok, everything has an end of life) but why should Eurocopter stop the B2 when there still is a market for it?

Looking for ec120 maneuvers guide
 

Just picked up an ec120 for our fleet of aircraft and am looking for a maneuver guide to help in setting up a profile guide for training our pilots. Any help in this arena would be appreciated.

Maintenance Program
 

I have to write a maintenance program (EASA country) for an EC120. I hope to have covered all of the airframe items and the national requirements but I'm still short of the engine items as I don't have access to the Turbomeca Manuals yet.

Could somebody please provide me with the required inspection items of the Arius 2F engine?

Thanks in advance.

New to EC120 hints
 

Having read all I can in past posts regarding operating Ec120 just wondering if there is any thing new out there with regards to;
Starting hints
Do the blades last full life ( seems lots for sale have blade change)
Load carrying rule of thumb
VMED operation, dependability
Pilot removal of dual controls( how easy is this)
Thanks in advance

As350nut lets see.
Starting hints: Firstly ensure you disconnect batt after shutdown so you have good batt for start. Secondly, simply follow the correct 120 post SB start procedure-line up the white lines and she goes no issues.
Blades life time: In my experience depend on environment, but if they are maintained correctly even if they dont look nice they last long. Do not paint them every 100hrs to look nice and they will sand erode to a point within limits and stay there, paint them especially with the incorrect chemicals and procedure and the paint and rubber strip will come off. Big problem and exchange req.
VEMD: reliable but make sure if you do replace it you get compatable software unit
Dual Controls: Easy but a locking required on the collective, cyclic and pedals just pins and dont forget the dummy plug on collective must be installed if you remove the duals. Our AMO gave us a illustration and we had to fit and remove 3 times incl the locking and then gave us AMO authorisation to fit and remove.

Starts generally - the Eurocopter procedure works fine. People are on record as having toasted an engine with an "improved" procedures. Hot and fast is better for the engine, I am told.

Hot starts - I prefer to get T4 clearly below the limit - 20 degrees or so. Also, keep the throttle back slightly from the white line then advance it in to prevent run-away T4 (exciting when that happens!)

Take the voltage warning seriously - below 15v at start and you are likely to have an over-temp. Watch that as closely as T4 during starts. If the machine has been idle for a while then consider a remote battery for the first start.

Run the engine weekly. If not the specs require you to set it up for storage. If you don't then you may find your paperwork to be a problem, and having to send the engine back to T for inspection is time consuming and not cheap.

Check the gearbox casing bolts - are they capped with weather-proofing? This is now standard for a rebuild (after 12 years) and on new machines. Without it corrosion in the gearbox studs can be a problem which you will find when you come to strip the MRG.

Load - the machine is sensitive to fwd centre of gravity. If I have anything in the load compartment I try to keep it to the rear of the bay as it does affect cyclic position and it makes me happier. As a rule of thumb, no cargo you +2 chaps then unless someone is very heavy you can carry full fuel. Any more pax (4x chaps or your 3 chaps plus a lady) and you are unlikely to be able to carry full fuel. I would suggest however that if you are departing in an EC120 with your W&B based on a 'rule of thumb' then we will be reading about you soon in an AAIB bulletin. I know, you do actually always check.

Make a note of the frame number and the tail number as these are different (not a lot of people know that). It can be an interesting discussion during a CAA audit (that's how I found out). The answer is the tails are built in China and have their own identification plate, so the aircraft frame number is the one the CAA chap needs, not the tail one.

Winter is coming....
 

In a few weeks our EC120 will go for a 4+ month winter sleep.
Instead of starting the engine every week, we're considering the
conservation procedure (not sure about the terminology) for the Arrius 2F.
Anyone has experience with this, is it for this situation a viable option?

Off course I'll talk to the mechanics, but for now I'm just curious about the procedure, costs and any other considerations.

Thanks in advance,

FTF :ok:

EC120 VEMD
 

I have some annoying error messages on VEMD ;
Vehicle Parameters out of Range
Failure detected


When the engineer checks them it is GPS not detected; or a keypad issue; but it is a new VMED with just 17 starts on it


I am told that there is no way to clear them and they will drop off after 250 starts.
This sounds really bad if its true; because will end up ignoring the message, I'm not going to get it checked every flight
What goes on? Is this Frenchmans revenge

I have noticed on my EC-130 that if I for example turn on Direct Battery before I turn on External Batt/Pwr in the start up sequence I will, upon shut down, get a failure detected. It spits out some erroneous reason similar to what you are finding. The only reason why I would turn Direct Battery on before External Batt/Pwr as called for in the start up check list would be for a night flight where I am turning on the Dome lights of the cabin for loading pax. The VEMD's are famous for showing goofy failures sometimes. Although mine is flawless when the checklist is followed...I bet you will find a reason as to why it does what it does.

Good luck.

If you hold the top four buttons on on the VEMD then push the battery on and hold (the four buttons) until it says let go, you'll find yourself in the menu where you can check the last vehicle parameter over limits yourself.

edit: I had a think about this and you actually hold the bottom three button of the top screen, off2, reest and select, not all four. Apologies as350nut.

Loose articles
 

Most 120 drivers will be aware of the risk of somethingfalling down the front edge of the floor and disappearing from view. This Irish accident report covers whathappened to G-BZIU

http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/upload/general/12104-2001007_INCIDENT_GBZIU-0.PDF

On Sunday 8th June on a charter flight in my machine, one of the pax losthis mobile – seems to have fallen from his pocket unknown. Yes, with that nose-down profile in cruise flight it ended up dropping-off the front ofthe floor and disappearing underneath. Fortunately,on this occasion it did not jam anything; it just sat there. Landing was uneventful, but the phone thenneeded to be recovered to return the machine to service, and though we couldsee it through the bottom of the plexi-glass there was no way to get a hand toit. Judicial application of a borrowed barbeque forkmoved the phone to a position where it could be recovered.
A salutaryreminder that loose objects on the floor of a 120 can easily end up where youdon’t want them. On this occasion no drama, but it could have ended differently.

John


I've had this exact thing happen to me and having since heard about the machine where the pedals jammed, there's now a new entry in the toptobottom flight manual - no loose items on the floor!

ec120
 

john, do you rent your EC120?

I found a metal part of the GPS missing, it also fell in that gap.
Had to buy "mechanical fingers" to get it out. I guess it's good to have one of these around in the hangar...

FFT - that is so obviously right. Bought one on eBay - under £3 with free delivery. Will place in the hold for emergency use.

James - PM sent

Interesting - it has fingers!

Also very handy is one with a magnet on the end for retrieving nuts and circlips that have fallen from your fingertips into the bowels of the machine!

On the market for an engine !
 

Long shot it may be,
But I would be very interested if anyone knows where I could get my hands on a serviceable Arrius 2F engine ?
Mine is emigrating to Turbomeca France as its started to make metal.

Any help appreciated

Nelly

Vehicle Paremeters out of range
 

Have sorted out the cause for this message on every flight, I changed from the awful NiCad battery to 2x odyssey sealed lead battery's and have no faults or problems starting. The message comes up because of the different battery type in use.

Does that require a modification? I ask because recently informed of someone at CAA trying to claim that a painted line added to helicopter side was "a modification" requiring paperwork. I understand that view was over-ruled when questioned.

John R81
 

Yes involves an engineering order to modify; a stainless steel bracket to hold the batterys in; removal of the NiCad cradle; a loop in the wiring to disconnect the fire warning for the stinky little NiCad when it decides to light up. A once off 2,000 cost but then you go from I NiCad at 6 to 8K that decides to let you down on start even though it says its good to go, to two oddessy that are about 500 each mil spec, contained, leak proof and super dependable and won't set you on fire if they are in the mood. They are good for 2 yrs and then put them (12V) in your car as they still have 3 yrs left on warranty ( 5 total).

Very interesting - thanks for the info. :ok:

I also have spurious warnings / over-limits from time to time. Through experimentation I have found that applying the rotor brake later than -10 from the stated application rpm can sometimes (not always) generate a spurious report of rotor over-speed (clearly spurious, as it is timed at 0.0 sec at a speed sufficient to hurl the blades into low orbit. The secret seems to be to apply rotor break just below 120 rpm and keep it fully on through the 110 - 50 range. Actually, I keep the break on until the rotor slows and I can position a blade to the front. Since adopting this technique I don't remember seeing a false rotor over-speed warning.

I haven't found the source of the spurious "Gen out of parameter" warning on start, not being prepared to play with the start sequence, but this could be the NiCad, like yours. My 120 does start well, and only once has she "hung" at 400 degrees (aborted, give it a few minutes, next start was perfect), and only a couple of times have I aborted start for battery voltage drop (I give up at seeing +1v to the stated 15v and go get ground power).

Interestingly, I had noticed that the faster / better the start goes on internal battery the more likely the spurious GEN warning is to arise, which is the opposite of what I would expect from a true warning. It is certainly not linked to a low voltage reference on the screen (which we all watch closely during starts) as the false report seems to be less likely to occur if there is a larger voltage drop on the battery. And, I have not actually had a false warning at all when an external ground power source has been added, which would be occasional (I know) but it would then be a cold / first start which would for me be quick and hot per the book; just the type of start that on internal battery only is more likely to generate a false report.

I do always check the on-board screen after the flight just to make sure that it is not a real fault detected; can't bring myself to not check even when I think I am certain the report is false!

on start.

On investigation of the RFM you may find a statement that this is "normal".

Yup. That just means they expect an error report. Don't always get it though.

Or are you referring to the over limit report displaying until 40%NR on next start, which is something different?

Finally, the low-cost Colibri that everyone's been asking for!
 

Not much room for your clubs (or missus), though. :E

Meet the tiny Colibri, Germany's one-seat wonder

I/C

FYI, that link won't open in the UK due to being bbc.com, not bbc.co.uk.