Regarding flight plan filing
CAP694 CH1 Para 2
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%20694.pdf

As per post above #63, flight was within uk airspace so not required. A109 from memory, 'loaded' weight of less than 5,700kgs, so not required there either.

It is advisable that a plan is filed for a journey over water where distance exceeds 10NM from UK coast, and remote areas where Search and Rescue could be difficult.

In my experience it's not unusual for a VFR flight UK-NI-UK to not file a VFR plan. The rationale for those decisions should be another thread. Post #17 indicates that he probably booked out his departure, and his destination knew he was coming and when to expect him.

Appleavi8or
 

Well said that man! I could not have put it better myself.

People need to stop offering their speculative cr@p based on what they think could have happened if.....

One of the team is dead, he was a character and he will be dreadfully missed by many. His passengers are dead, they will also be dreadfully missed. If anyone feels the need to impress the forum with their investigative prowess and super knowledge, go and speculate somewhere else.

Tam Macklin

Yes a direct route would go via the Shannon FIR and thus would require a flight plan so with the absence of a flight plan it would appear that the aircraft was intending to route clear of the Shannon FIR.

I had thought of the Licence / Reg issue but even routing around the Shannon FIR would cause the flight to be outside the UK during part of the flight (especially over the Sea) so if that was the case then I am sure the pilot would have remained in the UK at all times i.e. route via Scotland.

How easy is it for a pilot who wants to fly direct in such a case to file a flight plan from a remote location these days i.e. with no fax or AFPEX access? Would the hassle be enough to discourage a direct route?

Agree with Hihover, the pilot was a one off and I've had a few laughs with him over the last 10years or so. None of us know what happened and wild speculation doesn't help.
Wait until the official report then discuss not the other way round!

EGAB to EGCK does not take the flight close to the Mourne Mountains. As far as I can tell the accident site would be about 10+ miles off the direct track between the two aerodromes

The helicopter flew to Baronscourt when it left EGAB.

An aviation forum where an aircraft crash is reported and which occurs within the region from where a large number of members are subscribed - you are going to have to accept that, of all the places in the world, this is exactly where you will find speculation.

Those of you who knew the persons involved will be offended by anything other than condolences and factual reports and some of the emotive comments posted prove this point. Sorry to you for the lack of sensibility on the part of some posters - I doubt if its intentional but this is the nature of the beast (both online forums and the speculations which arise after an event such as this).

Those who didnt know those involved - try to form your comments in such a way so as to avoid offending those who may be reading and who knew the victims.

In my view (and I am trying to be objective given that I haven't a clue who was involved and am unfamiliar with that territory) it is unreasonable to expect zero speculation on such a forum. Frankly, what else can participants do except speculate?

Much of the tension is caused by the fact that this has happened in your own back yard and where some people know each other. To prove the point, a notice: "Helo Down in Qinghai Province" (China) would be far less liekly to draw emotive responses (unless it were a Chinese forum without restrictions).

I see that even Senior Pilot has felt disappointed by some of the posts.

If the forum moderators feel strongly about the quality of responses (which means they care) then they should put up a 'code of conduct' to remind those with no emotional connection to the event to 'mind their words' and to protect the relatives and freinds of those involved.

If you want this to be a condolences thread with the only other published information being details released in the media - you should say so.

Pilots/others taking wild stabs as what may have happened and doing so in a way which might upset those close to the victims - stop it.

The best any of us can hope for in situations like these is that something useful is gained from the tragedy, something hopefully which might save someone else in the future!

HM

apple

Firstly, let me state that I feel the pain of the family, and mean no disrespect what so ever.

As far as I am concerned....rumor network it is...Condolences to the family etc...yada yada yada......

Maybe we can all speculate and LEARN...... funny how when ever there is a fatality in the UK...you people all want to wait for the AIIB or whatever it is called...yet have an accident on this side of the pond and you are all over it...

If ever I die in an accident...please feel free to speculate and ask questions.... Please feel free to learn from my demise....if it turns out I was stupid...and someone learns to not follow my lead...then my loss is their gain....

Let the speculation continue.....with all due respect.

There are always thousands of 'ifs', usually they are irrelevant and armchair investigators should be ashamed. Just remember, there isn't a law making you take the shortest route or the fastest route or even the best route. Some people fly routes because they just want to.........
Why go the same old same old same old if you can afford not to?? He went that waybecause he did!! The aircraft was a suitable type to do it, so why not? The Mourne mountains are very beautiful all year round.
This IS a rumour network, if you have a rumour then I will fight your corner to announce it. However criticizing an acceptable route choice or whether a flight plan wasn't filed (don't have to) or stating the actual cause (without proof) of an accident is a bit tacky......:sad:

Keep the discussion going; there are some extremely interesting facts emerging from this thread.

Jim

As I understand it they were coming back from a shooting weekend, this might also have determened their route home staying within Uk FIR if their hardware was on board.

Get a life guys - this is the real world of rumour mongering in print here on Pprune, thats why it's so popular. You'd talk about it in the crewroom/office/bar so why not on here.

If you don't like it - move along and go elsewhere, loads of other helo forums.

This accident has the hallmarks of almost all the other helo / bad weather accidents: CFIT. Bad weather and off track (intentionally or otherwise). I've read many and I've been to quite a few in the aftermath.

The benefit of reading peoples views on here in the warnth of the house/office etc is that hopefully they might take some of the comments on board so that they are better prepared on the day they are tested :=

Good post Gordy.

familiarity
 

As yet the pilot remains unnamed, but if as his former colleague indicates he knew and flew out of Bessbrook, he would have been very familiar with the local terrain and weather and someone anyone would have been happy flying with.

Because in the crew room, you know who you're talking to and who's listening - here, you don't (with a few exceptions!)

Cheers

Whirls

I think there is some confusion about flight plans. If you fly from the mainland of the UK to the Isle of Mann, Northern Ireland or the republic of Ireland then you need to file a flight plan as special branch (police) have an interest. If you are polite you might get away with filing the same day but they normally want 24 hours notice.

Chopper Doc,

I think you will find that what you talk of is NOT a flight plan filed with ATC.

Bessbrook
 

eye witnesses living in Bessbrook have told a local cameraman that they saw the Augusta over the village on saturday. nothing offical. could have been revisitng old haunts?

Informing special branch is not the same as filing a flight plan. We can not learn anything from wild speculation.
I do know I would trust this pilot to fly me and my folks in any weather, anytime, anywhere.

Eh guys, are we wondering why he crashed? Or are we wonder whether he crashed legally while sticking to all regulations ?


Too much speculation on a flight and area most of you know nothing about...

gordy, im new (ish) here, a humble ppl with a wish to survive. thank you for articulating a pprune issue that has puzzled me for years..... when i hear of a crash i speculate wildly, online, with pilot friends, in the pub with non pilot friends who ask me. why??? because by exploring all the issues speculatively i hope to learn from them which one day may keep me alive and make me a better pilot. a crash stimulates debate energetically which ill informed or not is better than no debate at all. isnt this just the reason for an online forum????

so if its cfit, incapacity, or just the engines stopped lets talk about it... even if we all prove to be wrong i for one could learn heaps from the discussion. what on earth is wrong with that.?? if god forbid i ever crash id love you all to talk endlessly about it in the hope that no one else does the same..... yes people have died, its tragic, a whole different issue and i cant begin to think how the families are coping,, but its not insensitive to talk about the events, it just isnt.

by the time the aaib report is published we will all have moved on, now is the time to discuss this. a close friend of mine was killed 13 months ago in a light piston,,,, still no sign of a report. so what are we supposed to do just sit tight???

the censoring of speculation on this forum has baffled me for a long time. its basic human nature, exploring the survival instinct. this is by no means linked to a lack of respect to the deceased and their loved ones, to whom i offer my profound condolences, i am not equipped to deal with what they are going through and wont try..... i just hope it never happens to me....

which is why i speculate in the meantime.

I will say again, I believe we learn nothing from wild speculation! If you wish to learn from others mistakes look at the AAIB reports.
We all have ideas about why people crash but to actually learn we must have the full details not parts of ,or speculation. I am not after censorship but rubbish about a flight plan(not needed) or the merits or not of N-reg (maybe another time) don't help or explain the reasons why.
I will say no more on the matter.
Jarvy