AvGas Rotors Running Fuelling
 

Hi All

I recently saw a S300 refuelling rotors running and a small airfield the other day.

Fairly sure this is strictly "prohibit" according to the flight manual!

Has there been a change that I have missed recently?

Regards

DP

Hmmm, atop a ladder over high mounted tanks, rotors spinning inches above.

Highly volatile fuel splashing about with hot exhausts below.

What could possibly go wrong?

A common occurrence thirty or so years ago.
We didn't "splash" fuel around ,so nothing went wrong.

Crop spraying with a Bell47G5 it was standard practice to refuel with a jerry can on top of a rickity ladder in the middle of a cotton field about ten times a day.

There is nothing in the Pilot's flight manual that actually says you can't refuel with the rotors running but the way the fueling section is written it is very clear that they do not ever envisage people trying to refuel the helicopter with the rotors running.
If you were in that much of a hurry would it not be simpler to just bite the bullet and buy a helicopter that is capable of a 100 knots instead of pootling about in a 300 at nearer 60 kts.

Gentlemen,
situational awareness comes to mind...

Middle of nowhere, you know for what ever reason your battery is dying on you and, if shut down, you know you would be stuck.

Far fetched? Maybe, maybe not.

If everything is in proper working order I'd be with Chopper Doc.

Well, maybe, just maybe, but only if there's a war on.

Otherwise, I think this is a rhetorical question.

Madness!

To Chopper Doc,

It might be a case of having to conduct a job?
Our company (In Canada mind) do crop-dusting of various kinds, fuel loads are limited, and one must fuel after every other pass or so, this might SEVERLY restrict our operational tempo no?

AS long as you have it specified in your local operations manual and approved by the Authorities, then I see no probs...

Cheers
H.

Hot refueling
 

It's not a matter of speed. In Italy it's a compromise with payload, fuel, performance and costs in multi fractioned vineyards.(Or rice fields for mosquito fighting). A turbine machine would not help. Some of the fields take about 20 seconds to be sprayed, some take 5 minutes and very often they are not one close to each other. We use to refuel few liters with the hose at each landing, depending on type of nozzles, terrain, moving very often the truck to optimize the job. It is not the scenario with thousands of acres all in the same property and field to be sprayed following the GPS.
If all 300s doing AG spraying in Italy had to shut down and startup for refueling all the times they did, this branch of our little helicopter industry would have disappeared much faster.
We use to refuel with jerrycans only during pipeline patrol and after full stop.

I'm not the tallest but I've never needed a ladder to refuel a 300.:confused:

Admittedly I've also never needed to do it from jerry cans. :}But then the OP doesn't state it was from jerry cans. If it was a small airfield it would more likely be a bowser.

Cheers

Whirls

300 may be easier to refuel with jerry cans then an Enstrom or a Robinson but still don't fancy it with the rotors running. With a left hand only fuel tank the risks are slightly lower as the exhaust is the other side but the engine is still hot and if you spill any which is always possible you could have an interesting time of it.

In Aus there is an allowance for hot refueling, haven't got it in front of me but I think its CAO 20.11
I am pretty sure it has to written up in the Ops Manual as well. I daresay private operators can do what they please.

Its something like.

1 Pilot has to remain at controls
2 2 x fire extinguishers at the ready
3 measured amount of fuel
4 all radios off

I have seen a lot of hotrefueling in the bush from drum stock and I reckon the last place I would want to be is strapped into the front.

We used to hear of an occasional Bell 47 and Hughes 300 catching fire while hot refueling years ago but I have never heard of it happening to a Robinson R22, grass fire yes but from hot refueling no.

In The Netherlands it is prohibited to refuel with spinning rotors. If the CAA catch you doing so, you have to pay 1500 euro's. This all due to an accident where a refueling hose came into the rotor and caused some serious damage.

I've done it hundreds of times , never fill the tank ( watch for a wave from the pilot ). Low flow pumps are more controllable . Some make a cap filler , like a single point fuel fitting . Its all risk VS benefit . Hot fueling ,,,, some aircraft are better setup for this . All turbine Bells and MD 500s . HK

FYI, Hans, the thread is about rotor running refuels with AVGAS. AvTur is a different proposition.

Yes 300s and 47s avgas is what I meant , the 1500 euro guy said all machines with blades turning . I gave the turbines as an example with less issues .

waragee,

i have been hot refuelling for thirty years and have yet to hear of any machine catching fire, 47's or anything else, not even occasionally, in australia.

300's burnt to the ground because of their exhaust systems, not due to refuelling.

Same as Imabell. Seen plenty spilled on hot exhausts too. Pfffftttt...gone. Never heard of a 300 burnt this way but it probably has happened. As someone else said it's a matter of weighing up risk versus need. I know it's hard for someone in the UK or Europe to imagine any need to do this but believe me there are plenty of times it is the only practical solution.

Quite normal in the AAC of the 60's/70's.
Experienced men and of course a fire extinguisher on hand.
Done it from Bowsers, Preferred and by 'B' type filter with Jerry cans.
When the Sioux went the practice ceased.

john
And yes I know Avgas did not come in Jerry Cans, but that's another story.

It's the avgas vapour that burns, not the avgas itself and to make that happen you need an ignition source such as a spark or flame. Super-heating avgas on a hot exhaust pipe will increase its flash point, but won't autoignite it; it does create more fumes though - quickly!