The company can continue to trade if it's in administration. The administrators' objective is to maximise shareholder value, so if it believes the business can be sold as a going concern, it's important to collect cash to satisfy the creditors and help protect shareholders. This may not be what's happening in this case however...

Agreed if the company is in Administration. However, Dennis K's post mentions both Receivership and Liquidation (which are different) so I'm confused as to which.

Administration = company on life support but good doctors may breath life back
Receivership = amputation of an asset which may, or may not result in ...
Liquidation = the company dies.

Cheers

Whirls

Whyrls
I would have thought it was fraud to solicit moneys knowing there is a good chance you will not deliver the product?

It is .... but the key word is "knowingly".

When a company goes into Administration, a firm of Insolvency Practitioners is appointed to try to keep the business (not the company) going. The company's liabilities are frozen while the Administrator tries to salvage the business and make enough profits to repay the creditors.

If the company which ran the businesses of LOOP and BLADES goes into Administration, the Administrator can "kick ass" and try to fulfil the subscriptions which have been paid for plus producing further magazines.

Cheers

Whirls

Whirls - you're right, but I think DennisK may be confused. Liquidation is the last thing that happens to the company and usually takes months, or even years, after the 'doctor' has resuscitated the patient's assets - or not. There's no such thing as a liquidator as such, it's just the final process of the admin (i.e. winding up the company) and is performed by the administrative receiver.

Er .. not strictly true. The state of affairs of some companies can be such that they can go into a Creditors' Voluntary Liquidation straight away without having the process of either Adminstration or Receivership first.

If a substantial, non-secured creditor, feels that the company is trading fraudulently (i.e. it does not have the working capital to meet its liabilities), that creditor can apply to the courts for a Creditors' Voluntary Liquidation. If other creditors come forth (as they undoubtedly would after a posting in the London Gazette) and support the application, the courts can impose the liquidation.

There is also the Members' Voluntary Liquidation where the shareholders of a profitable company can just decide to commit suicide.

Cheers

Whirls

Well, liquidation is the last thing to happen to a company, but there are many things that could happen before that. If a company cannot meet it's liabilities as they fall due, the directors could be accused of trading whilst insolvent and that's an offence the directors could go to prison for. However, if those directors swear on a bible in front of a lawyer now and again, saying they believe funds will become available/they'll trade their way out of it, etc., the company can legally continue to do business.

A CVL can take a long time - more time than most distressed companies have - and even then, the court needs to decide. I know of several companies where the Crown has applied for a CVL but the company is still trading 8 months later! Also, very few SMEs read the London Gazette; the first they'll know of a company in admin (apart from chasing a/p) is when the administrator writes to them saying they're in control. Presumably, this is the letter than DennisK received, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's the end of the road. I wonder if the owners of Blade/Loop looked at a Corporate Voluntary Arrangement? Who called in the administrators?

500e
Just to be clear, the directors may have instructed Administrative Receivers on 24th december. Once appointed, the Administrator/s have complete control over the company and its assets; at that point, managing the business has nothing more to do with the directors.

The Administrator/s alone will decide on the best course of action for the business and if and when to call a creditor's meeting - not the directors (see above). The Administrator/s may or may not liquidate the company in due course. As I said, this is usually months after the appointment because trying to sell the business or it's assets, managing any fixed or floating charge holders, debentures, calculate dividends, etc. all takes time.

If you don't want to claim your 30 quid back from your credit card company, I suggest you contact the Administrator in your capacity as creditor and ask what's going on. They'll tell you to go away, but only after checking that your interest has been noted. Once noted, you'll get chapter and verse on progress of the administration, as well as detailed accounts and the circumstances leading up to the unfortunate demise of the business.

500e, all I, and toptobottom were doing is explaining the general principles behind company and business insolvency. The various terms of Administration, Receivership and Liquidation appear to have been used interchangeably, whereas they are all separate and distinct procedures resulting in different outcomes. I can't make any comment as to what is right and wrong since there has not been any confirmation of which insolvency route is bein taken.

Cheers

Whirls

As if by magic...........
 

Guess what arrived through my letterbox today................the February issue of Blades and Loop! :ok:

K77 - Same here.

Even after telling the (in administation) sales team that I would not pay for Blades and after them telling me that I'd never receive another free copy, my free copy arrived!

they say the hair and nails keep growing even after the body's dead...:uhoh:

500e - did you (or anyone?) contact the Administrators as I suggested?

I had a phone call from Loop's Subs department last week..

Trying to get me to take out a subscription - they seemed stumped when I advised them that I'd already subscribed!

What I bet the lady on the phone wasn't expecting was for me to then ask about the voluntary liquidation status and what was going on...

I was told that all was now sorted and there had been some form of management buy-out and that the Feb issue of Loop / Blades was being sent the same day.

Various posts in this topic seem to suggest some people have had a feb issue, however once again they don't seem to be sending it to people who've paid - their subs lists still seem screwy.

I phoned the office again on Wednesday and was told that I should have got my issue in the post - I advised I hadn't and they said they'd ensure another copy was put in the post... Alas I'm still waiting - hmmm

It seems they're dead keen to take money but not so on making sure people who've paid actually get what they've paid for, oh and that those who haven't paid aren't getting something!

DennisK have you as contributor got your copies through the post? From what you've been told, are they serious in continuing the magazine?

Here's waiting for the postman for my mags:-)

Jeff Hall

TB
They never took my money, so not an option.
It would appear that it was not just the delivery system that was screwed.

Well, I received my Feb copy too and I'm pleased if the Administrators have struck adeal with the management; I'm sure it will go from strength to strength, not least on the back of al the PR on PPRuNe!!

Good luck guys :ok:

Got a refund
 

Called my credit card company and requested refund. Two days later a form arrived to complete and 5 days after that the funds were back in my bank.

Simples.

Blades
 

I guess most of you will now know that the original management have sorted out a deal to get both BLADES and LOOP up and running again. My article on the Essex ASU scheduled for the old BLADES has now been published in an all glossy BLADES magazine ... out now.

Anyone can go bust in this mad business, Even Rolls Royce managed it and was going again within six months. I just wish their team better luck this time. Dennis K

Have all the creditors been paid? If not, I wouldn't be so quick to wish them good luck for the future unless it's a new management team in place.

BTW, I'm not an embittered creditor, but I do get a bit hot under the collar when a company fails, leaves a load of debts, and then re-emerges debt free as a new limited company, asking what all the fuss was about.

Hopefully this is not the case with Loop or Blades, but I reserve the right to be skeptical.

jez d

With respect, that's a rather naive thing to say. There are lots of reasons why a business can fail and not necessarily the fault of the management team.

The creditors will probably be presented with a proposal by the administrators for so many pence in the pound; I say probably because I doubt very much that the administrators have sorted out how much is left in the pot (if anything) in order to calculate a distribution yet.

'Phoenixism' is illegal and is so to prevent the habitual wind up and resurrection process that was so popular in the 80s. However, it is possibly to do a 'pre-packed' administration, which allows the administrators to realise some value from the assets of OldCo, as well as save staff jobs, etc. As I said before, if a creditor has registered its interest with the administrators, it will be given a detailed account of the circumstances leading up to the failure of the business.

If the management team of NewCo is the same (or similar) as OldCo, I applaud them for persevering and wish them all the very best with it :ok:

TTB

Fair point TTB. Maybe I'm just a bit old fashioned in my thinking.

Regards, jez

jez D
I am with you
We have about 5 lots of detailed accounts on my desk at present, we do not expect to get a good drink out of any of them, even if we lump them together.
Some Co seem to reinvent :E themselves at regular intervals, & then spring up as Blogs 20011 Ltd
We have been in business since 1963 & have never found it was worth pursuing as a creditor (small amounts) .
The same names keep cropping up, strange that TB thinks this does not happen.
Quote
The creditors will probably be presented with a proposal by the administrators for so many pence in the pound; I say probably because I doubt very much that the administrators have sorted out how much is left in the pot (if anything) in order to calculate a distribution yet
This can drive smaller company's to the wall .
I presume that is what you mean when you say, "There are lots of reasons why a business can fail and not necessarily the fault of the management team. ".
There have been 2\3 threads running on pprune regarding strange happenings in this industry alone.
Pleas don't forget the preferred creditor list, I note the accountant costs appear here with eye watering amounts in a lot of payouts.

I think if I ran a business that depended on getting money from small-to-medium aviation companies I would insist on pre-payment.

I didn't say it doesn't happen! What I did say is that Pheonixism is illegal and precisely to avoid the situation where unscrupulous directors can do the dirty on their creditors for their own convenience. What can happen, is a pre-packed admin. This normally involves the director/s of a distressed company approachIng an administrator before the business becomes insolvent and agreeing the acquisition of certain assets e.g. contracts, staff, materials/stock, goodwill, etc. before putting the company into admin. These pre-packs are strictly regulated and prevent 'the same old names' habitually shedding debt by 're-inventing themselves' whenever things get sticky.

Business ethics.
 

For 'Hands on' ... the problem with your system is the 'goodwill' factor.

Over the years and in my business, I decided I was never prepared to treat my every day customers as '****s' and demand money up front for my service, just because one in a hundred of them was a defrauding ****. In thirty years I've never solved that problem and like many others, the rotten 'one in a hundred' has taken me for a few hundred and a few thousand and in one case half way to six figures.

Cest la vie .... Dennis Kenyon.

Business ethics
 

Sorry ... that last line should be 'five!' DRK

There's a huge difference between the 'defrauding sh*ts' whose intention from the outset is to take a supplier for a ride and a genuinely distressed situation that couldn't be avoided :ugh:

I don't imagine for a second that the directors behind Blades magazine wanted to go into admin. Indeed, it's quite likely that they've had very many sleepless nights and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they've have lost their own money in this case.

TTB

I think it's fair to say that if the subscription debacle helped topwards the 'going in to admin' then they deserved those sleepness nights :ugh:

If you go to Companies House you can download the creditors report for Loop Publishing (UK) Ltd and see who is owed what.

Blades magazine or not
 

Despite requesting the so called free copy they never arrive, it must still be loop, yes the ones who took subscriptions but never sent them either. Nothing much changes does it, there are other free issues out there I have signed up for one and got there last 12 editions within 12 hours.

Mags update
 

Has anyone had any success with their Blades subscriptions? I paid for mine back in August and have so far only been sent one magazine. Can anyone advise if they have had a copy beyond August 2011?
No reply to emails, and so I fear the worst:confused:

Met them at Helitech, full of exciting news about moving to 100% iPad publishing. Not having an iPad yet, don't know if that's true.

BLADES Magazine for iPad on the iTunes App Store

Haven't had a copy of Loop in months, kind of given up due to inconsistency of issues arriving / not arriving.

Hope they're successful, used to enjoy the read.

I spoke with them last week. I paid my subscription to Loop, P1 and Blades last year. Later that year, they introduced the iPad version, they are no longer sending out the magazines.

I do not have an iPad. I did not ask for my money back, but I guess if enough people do, they may have to.

XTEC

Another good reason to buy an iPad
 

I rang Loop today and spoke to a chap called Sam who was very apologetic, but keen to emphasize that he wanted to reimburse any monies due. He has also asked if I could post on here his details should there be any other subscribers who have disappeared off their radar that are also due a refund.
[email protected]
It would appear that since they have launched the app on iPad they have had a new lease of life, and apparently this new platform looks set to bring them success, probably due to low distribution or production costs.
SO...good news all round, no quibble refund, and a great magazine set to continue. Just need to buy an iPad, which will mean sacrificing an hour in the 44. By the way it doesn't load on an iphone...already tried.

A load of nonsense
 

Why should loop be trusted at all with any word they say about any type of issue or format, they ripped me off big style I had to get a charge back from my c/c company because they flatly refused to return or reply to emails.

I'm not and most others will not go and spend 400/500 pounds on the word of a publisher that ripped off a lot of readers.

Good riddance loop.

BLADES
 

Firstly we didn't rip any readers off and I'd watch comments like those until you have the full facts. When our last company went bust and we had to close it we didn't know if we would be able to still get control of the brands that we had sunk everything into over the last seven years. We had formed a company called LOOP Digital Media in an attempt to do that and we had to pay a market rate to get the brands. What we didn't have to do was honour subscriptions from the last company but we did at over 60k of expense to me personally. So rather than ripping off readers you might be inclined to think that I am someone who takes the responsibilities of business very seriously.
What I can't effect is the market place. Advertising revenue is tough but since September 2010 we were invited by Adobe to be on the pre release programme on there iPad publishing software. Due to our editorial and LOOPTV angle we were the only aviation publisher in the world to be invited.
Since then we have been working on developing our apps and today we remain as the only aviation publisher in the world to have magazines that are built specifically for the iPad rather than PDF page turner efforts that are just the same as print versions.
We are blazing a trail and to date we've had over 40,000 downloads of our apps and the growth over the last week since we went on Newsstand with LOOP and BLADES has been incredible. We have had a ten fold increase.
The apps give us a worldwide market place and because they are so very good people return. We have 11% of our downloads from Asia, 34% from North America, 6.5% from South America. It's given us and our advertisers readers in regions that we couldn't touch with print. More importantly it has given us the renewed vigor to make wonderful content. If you look at the LOOP and BLADES and P1 apps you'll see what I mean. The quality is exceptional.
The world of aviation is full of twists and turns, peaks and troughs and I have broad shoulders (you need them to tough it out in publishing!) but anyone who knows us and what we do will be appalled by those type of comments and you should apologise. We do not rip anyone off. We have around 60 subscribers of BLADES that are due money out of a total of 2700 paid subscribers. In the meantime have a look at the apps. They really are a work of art and we were just nominated as Media Pioneers of the Year! The future is never certain but our team is the best and we always strive to make each and every issue better than the last. You should applaud our verve. All our publications are now iPad only, over 60% of our readers have iPads and we reach a completely new set of readers worldwide. Publishing has changed forever and we are first. If nothing else you should realise that we have incredible staying power and creativity to do what we do from such a small team.
But you shouldn't buy an iPad just because of us, you should get one because it will revolutionise the way you access media, work, aviation and a whole lot more. They are quite brilliant. It just so happens that you can also get our apps on the iPad so it's a win win! We are just about to launch our Chinese language app for P1 and we already have a German language app for LOOP - called LOOPIN.
And one last point. All of aviation has had a rocky time over the last three years. We've been right in the middle of that and are proud to stand up, take our punches with everyone else but still keep going and still keep innovating and making wonderful content.

Helicopter International is celebrating 35 years of publishing this year and HeliData News and Classified is now 30 years old....both still providing print as well as on line copies for those interested is news,sales and other aspects of the helicopter market...Long Established publications are always the best !

helicopternews: How did they [sic] do that exactly?

I am not here to defend LOOP, but merely pass on what was said. In my opinion he seemed genuinely sorry for how they had handled things in the past and appeared keen to put things right. Why offer to give his name and contact details to this forum if there was not a genuine want to put things right. Personally I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt, and see how long it takes for funds to be put back into my account.

My comment about purchasing an iPad was a tongue on cheek remark. I have been trying to justify the purchase for the past year, this was just another selling point to convince Mrs D! I am not suggesting we all go out and purchase an iPad in order to satisfy the publishers distribution numbers, but consider the positives in this latest development. With no distribution costs and no printing costs, maybe these guys can start to make some real money and make this a successful business. We in turn will be the beneficiaries of a monthly (not quarterly) fix of this wonderful industry we are so passionate about, and at NO cost.

Whilst I join all who are frustrated at losing any monies, lets not lose sight of what it is these guys do. They feed us heli addicts with news, data, and general insight of the heli world that frankly I cannot get enough of. In some ways these publications albeit fractured and somewhat inconsistent in their delivery, help keep my life long dream alive. I have not flown this year, and the weeks are racing past. Without this forum and other media such as Blades my focus begins to ebb, and my day job begins to cloud over my dream to fly for a living.

Lets cut them some slack, they must love this industry as much as we do to keep trying, and I for one applaud that. Its a tough world out there, keeping a business going in this environment is an uphill struggle, I know, thats why I have not flown this year :(

Lets just hope I don't eat my words!

Sounds like BBC:E