NH-90 problems
 

Seems the Germans aren't very happy with theirs!

Anyone hear anything more about this machine, it appears to be suffering with a variety of problems.

Germany not happy with NH90 helicopter - UPI.com

From what I hear from Australian Army sources (and this is a rumour so qualifies for the network), they are not happy with their NH90's for the same reason - apparently allergic to soldiers and weaponry.

Another good buy:ugh:

Perhaps Sikorsky should offer up more Blackhawks....at least they work as advertised.:E

Looks like Australia will not be buying the NFH-90 without a competition from the MH-60R. Press release below from 25th February 2010

The Minister for Defence, Senator John Faulkner, today announced that the Government has given first pass approval for a major project to provide the Australian Defence Force with a new naval combat helicopter.

Project AIR 9000 Phase 8 is included in the Defence Capability Plan to provide naval warships with a new combat helicopter.

Senator Faulkner said that two potential helicopters had been identified. “The Government has decided that the new helicopter will be either the Sikorsky-Lockheed Martin built MH-60R sourced through the United States Navy, or the NATO Helicopter Industries NH90 NFH sourced through Australian Aerospace”.

Senator Faulkner said that a competition would be held between the two helicopter options which would be cost-capped by the Defence Materiel Organisation through the tender process.

“The new naval combat helicopter will enhance the Royal Australian Navy’s ability to conduct a range of maritime operations. It will be capable of undertaking anti-submarine warfare and will be equipped with air-to-surface missiles,” Senator Faulkner said.

“This fleet of combat helicopters will form the centerpiece of naval combat aviation to beyond 2040.

“The new helicopter will greatly extend the eyes and ears of our surface fleet and allow the conduct of combat and support operations in the complex and demanding maritime environment.

“They will replace the current fleet of Seahawk anti-submarine warfare helicopters and fill an operational need left by the cancellation of the Seasprite project,” Senator Faulkner said.

The procurement of the new naval combat helicopters as a matter of urgency was announced in the 2009 Defence White Paper. This decision demonstrates the Government’s commitment to this important Defence capability.

Sufficient helicopters will be acquired to provide at least eight helicopters concurrently embarked on ships at sea, which under the White Paper requires a fleet of 24 helicopters.

“The competitive process would commence in the next few months with the Government making a final decision about the new helicopter in 2011,” Senator Faulkner said.

“This schedule will enable the new helicopters to be delivered from 2014.

“Any decision Government makes in 2011 will take into account all relevant considerations including capability, cost, interoperability with other ADF capabilities, Australian industry opportunities, risk and value for money,” Senator Faulkner said.

The Minister for Defence Personnel, Materiel and Science, Greg Combet, said that the decision to progress the project via a competitive tender was consistent with the Kinnaird and Mortimer procurement reforms.

The tender will allow the companies to offer innovative solutions that satisfy the capability, cost and schedule requirements and detail what opportunities they will offer local industry.

“A competitive process will ensure value for money for the tax payer and ensure the project's acquisition strategy provides the Government with the best possible information to support a decision for this vital capability,” Mr Combet said.

It sounds like they bought it by mail order and didn't bother to check the spec's at all!


Although my real thoughts are that this is a result of the weight reclamation/rationalisation in the later design modules.

...or possibly a classic case of Human Factors as any troops who were sent to sit in it for publicity purposes had no chance to voice an opinion.

So...how many training/light freight helicopters do you need?

@ ifsknt you totally reversed the quote there, not buying the MH-60R through FMS, without a competition. Also I'm hearing the MRH90 is performing really well, MRH90 Swoops In - Royal Australian Navy

Fleebag

It wasn't a quote.

I thought Australia was always going to go for the MRH 90 (for Army and 6 Navy to replace Sea Kings) followed by the NFH 90 for the Navy.

The German report on the operational assessment of the aircraft would seem to be at odds with the assessment your link provided.

What's the variant Germans are worried about (IOC, IOC+, upcoming FOC...)?
Germany is the only country wich received the "Step 1" chopper named IOC in
December 06, with limited, (but anounced & accepted) capacities.
It was such a pitty that they ordered an extra 42 more TTH 6 months later

What are the concerns for italian, nordics or Oman customers? Any complain?

I've heard the German navy is searching infos about Super Seasprite;)

Looks like the MH-60R won the day....

Minister for Defence Stephen Smith and Minister for Defence Materiel Jason Clare today announced that the Australian Government had approved the acquisition of 24 MH-60R Seahawk ‘Romeo’ naval combat helicopters at a cost of over $3 billion.
The 2009 Defence White Paper committed the Government to equipping naval warships with a new combat helicopter capable of conducting a range of maritime misions with advanced anti-submarine warfare capabilities and the ability to fire air-to-surface missiles.
This announcement delivers on that commitment.
The new helicopters will replace the Navy’s current combat helicopter capability provided by 16 Seahawk S-70B-2 helicopters and will also provide the air to surface strike capability which was to have been provided by the cancelled Seasprite program.
This decision follows a 15-month competitive acquisition process involving the Sikorsky-Lockheed Martin built MH-60R and the NATO Helicopter Industries NH90 NFH assembled by Australian Aerospace.
This competitive process has ensured value for money for the tax payer.
The Australian Government has chosen the ‘Romeo’ helicopter because it represents the best value for money for taxpayers and was the lowest risk option.
The ‘Romeo’ is a proven capability currently operated by the United States Navy. The United States Navy has accepted around 100 ‘Romeos’ which have accumulated 90,000 flying hours, including on operational deployments.
Interoperability with Australia’s Alliance partner, the United States, is also a significant advantage of this helicopter.
The helicopters are largely military off-the-shelf built by Sikorsky and Lockheed Martin and will be purchased through the Foreign Military Sales process from the US Navy.
Defence has signed a Letter of Agreement for the acquisition with the United States Government.
The first two helicopters will arrive in mid-2014 for testing and evaluation with operations expected to commence in mid-2015.
Acquisition of 24 ‘Romeos’ means that Navy will have the capacity to provide at least eight warships with a combat helicopter at the same time, including ANZAC Class frigates and the new Air Warfare Destroyers. The remainder will be based at HMAS Albatross in Nowra, New South Wales, and will be in various stages of the regular maintenance and training cycle.
They will be equipped with a highly sophisticated combat systems designed to employ Hellfire air-to-surface missile and the Mark 54 anti-submarine torpedo.

23 June 2011, Italian Navy gets it first NH90
 

(From Flightglobal.com)To put this into perspective ... The first NH90 prototype had its maiden flight in December 1995. Deliveries began in 2006.

Compare to the following maritime helicopter ...
In early 1978 the Navy selected Sikorsky's S-70B design, which was designated "SH-60B Seahawk". The first production version SH-60B achieved its first flight on 11 February 1983. The SH-60B entered operational service in 1984, with first operational deployment in 1985.

By 1987, thousands of hours had been flown by SH-60B helicopters, operationally, and thousands more in training and work ups.

Here in the US we often complain about how long it takes to get aircraft, heck, any weapons system, from concept to operation. The folks in the NH90 program have made me feel slightly better, but I feel awful for those folks who have been waiting for this bird to arrive.

Anyone flown the aircraft?

I'd hope it's a good flyer, given all the time and effort that's been put into it.

Dutch aren't happy either
 

On the first of june the newpaper 'Trouw' revealed that the Dutch Helikopter Command (DHC) are not happy with the performance of the NH90.

According to a internal report DHC finds the NH90 to heavy and limited deployable. Also DHC says the helicopter has a limited range in hot temperatures and can't carry specified number of persons.

Nieuwe heli defensie presteert ondermaats - MSN NIEUWS (dutch)

Does anyone have a link to the full contents of these reports?

Publicity on ANY government aircraft will ALWAYS find the users (government employees) and manufacturers saying what a fantastic machine it is (if they value their jobs and/or ever want to get promoted) which is why PPRuNe is such a valuable tool in trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff (BS from the facts).

Take the V-22 for example....

Or the Sikorsky MHP?

Dan

With the greatest respect, this thread (titled NH90) has been running for 18 months and your first contribution was 3 days ago, so your view that is simply an opinion carries little weight.

You introduced the V-22 into a discussion on NH90. I introduced the MHP because NH90 was one option for MHP. It is worth considering that if you order a helicopter, get it in service and have gripes, they are generally less than if you order a helicopter (like the Crown did with the MHP) and are still waiting for it and having to keep an elderly earlier type still in service.

A touch of paranoia there or perhaps you are the one hooking on worms?

This tread was discussing an operational aircraft not a developmental aircraft such as the MHP. BIG difference unless of course you're just 'baiting-up' like you've done elsewhere here.

How does this make ANY sense whatsoever when the previous posts in this very thread cite publicity that the Dutch Helikopter Command (DHC) are not happy with the performance of the NH90 and Germany is not happy with NH90 helicopter.

So that certainly flies right in the face of "ANY government aircraft ALWAYS finding its users claiming it is a fantastic machine"...especially when both Germany and the Netherlands are a part of the NHIndustries consortium!

:suspect:

But nice try in taking yet another unwarranted stab at the V22 in a totally irrelevant thread.

SANS,

You're right as I should have said US government funded aircraft. It appears foreign governments are more truthful.

Dan RenoWhy not settle back under the bridge over the Osprey Freeway, Dan.

We can stick to the NH-90 with no fear that your pet peeve will not get its share of consideration and discussion ... in that thread. :cool:

For the record, I wonder how much hyperbole is included in the February Article covering German disappointments with NH-90. See the bold and italicized bit ... and call me skeptical.

You're both right. Ha! Ha!

Helicopters on projects of concern list

:rolleyes:

Pity the deed of agreement doesn't include Mike model Blackhawks at the moment.

Rough Path to Production
 

The NH-90 has from inception has traveled a rough path. NH Industries was formed in 1992 with the design, development, manufacture and first flight of the first NH-90 following in just 3 years (18 December 1995). Since that first flight the program has been wrought with problems, both technical and programmatic. A case may be made that that NH Industries attempted to include many yet unproven attributes in one airframe. Some of those attributes are responsible for today’s issues. Now 19 years later, with limited production continuing, it appears as if many of the initial issues are still present creating havoc for those nations that elected to procure them. Some nations, Sweden for example, have elected to procure MH-60s as an interim solution while awaiting the solutions for NH-90 problems.

I have rarely found that trying to make your customer look stupid is a winning sales strategy. But on the other hand, there is nothing safer than a helicopter that never flies! :rolleyes:

Navy: Europe firm ‘twisting’ facts for $1bn deal

February 21, 2012 By Sridhar Kumaraswami Correspondent New Delhi


A big controversy has hit the acquisition of 16 Multi-Role Helicopters for the Indian Navy, a deal estimated to be worth around $1 billion, with the Indian Navy accusing European vendor NH Industries (NHI) of trying to “mislead” the defence ministry, “twist” the Naval Staff Qualitative Requirements (NSQRs), “falsify” the Request for Proposal (RFP) and cause delays with “unreasonable que-ries/concerns”.

Documents accessed by this newspaper show the Navy criticised the European firm after it raised doubts about the helicopter of its American rival Sikorsky. This new US-European battle for an Indian defence deal is leading to a lot of acrimony.

NHI earlier alleged Sikorsky does not meet the NSQRs for the deal, and complained to the defence ministry. The Navy has now made it clear that both NHI and Sikorsky have met the NSQRs, making them both eligible. The Navy earlier submitted its Field Evaluation Trials (FETs) report to the MoD on acquiring the anti-surface and anti-submarine MRHs. NHI, based in France and with French, German and Italian participation, pitched its NH90 helicopter against Sikorsky’s S70B.

NHI earlier raised doubts about the Sikorsky helicopter on various aspects, including dual redundancy, fitment of fuel tanks, full authority automatic flight control system, fuel reserves at the end of mission, sensor functions and usage monitoring system. The Navy has, however, given the Sikorsky helicopter a clean chit.

In its final recommendations and in response to NHI’s allegations, the Navy said: “It emerges that NHI is attempting to mislead the higher authorities and cause delays... with unreasonable queries/concerns. The Indian Navy has evaluated the (NHI) NH90 and (Sikorsky) S70B helicopters, and considers both platforms meet the NSQRs specified in... the RFP.”

On NHI’s queries on the Sikorsky helicopter’s “sensor functions” and “fitment of both external and internal fuel tanks”, the Navy said: “It is clearly evident that NHI have twisted the NSQR, thereby falsifying the Request for Proposal on the MRH with an aim to misleading the higher authorities MoD”.

NHI had raised doubts on several other features. It said: “(The NSQR) requires no failure of single system should lead to a catastrophic failure. NHI would like to understand how this is demonstrated since the S70B does not have dual redundancy built in to all aircraft flight control systems.”

More problems for NH(F)-90
 

This thread has been quiet for a while.
I hope i am adding this message to the right (most recent) thread on NH-90.

This week the Dutch have stopped acceptance/delivery of 7 remaining NH-90's.
Reason is the bad corrosion resistance of the NHF frigate models.
They state to be the first customer which have used the type heavily in a saline environment.
This being in the Caribbean and Horn of Afrika.

This makes me wonder:
- What has the Italian navy done with theirs since 2011?
- What have all other customers done with their now 200 delivered NH-90?
(although not all operated out above sea, this must have been given some rust?)
- What will happen if the heli's will operate on the North Atlantic?

Below a link to the Helihub site which also covered this item.
Apologies for the terrible translation. The automatic translation programme is clearly not
up to official govermental Dutch language.
Corrosion stops Netherlands NH90 deliveries | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source

In this link also contains further downlinks to the official letter to parliament (dutch) and the corrosion investigation.
The official letter also states operational consequences such as:
Night SAR capablity to be rented in (longer)
Good news for NHV!

The problems were first reported half March.
At that time WTV from Vlaanderen Belgium made a report with interview with NHV:

TV report with NHV

Also stating that
Not expressed specifically, i assume they imply that Belgian SAR could do with smaller aircraft than NH90.
It may be clear that the NH90 is not bought only to replace SAR.

Are there any Dutch or Belgian posters with more insight?

SLB

While the dutch have used both helicopters (one being "MOC", the other one "FOC") from ships, the italians have mainly used theirs from onshore bases..

And "highly used"?

Both dutch helicopters flew about 250 hours in maritime environment….

"Heavy corrosion" after 250 flight hours?
Come on!


It´s a piece of sh*#*-and an expensive one!


http://www.defensie.nl/binaries/defe...osie_NH-90.pdf

My spies tell me that there was some problems with the Oz versions hovering over the water and getting erosion on the bottom of the blades (not at the leading edge, but part way back).
Anyone care to confirm / deny?

The corrosion usually does not really come from saltwater spray-most helicopters are sprayed with fresh water when they come back from flights in saline environments…..

The corrosions that they are talking about are from condensation (in parts of the helicopters that usually no one has access to) as well as from "normal" air……..

A few flashbacks for me there! I remember long long ago receiving a stack of standards documents for a naval contract that included design and development. The specs for preferred materials were all for pretty standard aeroplane stuff with not a single marine material (not even 200 year old bronzes or New Forest oak :E). Nothing cheap for the brown jobs to drag through the mud either. When I complained, I was asked if I would like to serve on a committee overseeing the standards. Too much to do anyway, so I declined. Perhaps NH Industries are using the same books!

salt spray
 

Huey racer,
It doesn't make it any better but actually the report mentions various areas where salt spray was not expected but occured due to open door operations (cockpit and areas under floor boards)
It also mentions that water was not properly drained from areas that are exposed when the tail is folded.
And it mentions that there is a limited time frame to rinse down as the aircraft is to be tied down when in high sea state. It could be that my fellow country navy men are slow or have no sea legs but i prefer to agree with your opinion about this piece of s*#*.

on the otherhand:
All helicopter models are like kids.
It takes 15 years to get rid of the child diseases....
What i have read on the internet there was a time that the Seaking lost its blades faster than Arjen Robben his hair...
SLB

Audit report on Australia's buy

http://anao.gov.au/~/media/Files/Aud...13-2014_52.pdf

German helicopter fleet 'not fit for Nato'

Typically sensational reporting (all that's lacking is the near-miss on the orphanage), but it sounds like the Bundeswehr had an uncontained RTM322 engine failure due to a "bent driveshaft," possibly due to a thermal issue.

I am not familiar with that engine.
I can empathize with the Germans on the engine's uncertain behavior as a training/readiness degrader.
Back in the early 90's, SH-60 family (B and F at the time) had some issues with the T-700 engine: uncommanded engine shutdowns.
There were a variety of electrical issues, signals crossing (related to the power sharing circuits) and wiring harnesses that sent spurious signals now and again. I remember (vagule) some diodes and seals were culprits for engines doing weird things.

It took a while for the engineers from
Marconi
Sikorsky
GE
all of whom had various subsystems involved in this lashup, to isolate all of the faults and find the fixes for them.

I will venture the following guess: the NH-90's engine issue will similarly get solved when the techs get their thinking caps on.

When my son was in the Saddam war the helis tasked to collect their Regiment from near the Iran boarder, were going Tech several times with and due to Cracked heads, plus bad vibes. Is this still the same sort of problem?

Peter R-B
Lancashire

I am not going to say that there are no problems with NH90 NFH, but apart from all negative input here the helicopter flies very nice and easy! :ok:
Its full fly-by-wire controls (qualified ADS-33) makes her easy to handle.

The RTM322 engines have had issues, but it is a relative new engine compared to the rather old T700.

The complex but extensive Naval Mission System has great capabilities and is qualified for 3 crew operations.

Yes, i am happy... :)

That was'nt the NH90, was it ?

Thanks for the "user feedback" g.jongeneelen:ok:
Maybe all the work and worry was worth it.

Finnish NH90s creep towards 50% operational serviceability rate - 1/23/2015 - Flight Global

"The availability of spares is one factor behind the low availability rates, for which there is a 200-day average turnaround."

6 months to get spare parts is appalling, and that is the AVERAGE time!

Question:
Is there a correlation between this helicopter being "full FBW" and the readiness rate challenges? Or is that just a coincidence? :confused:

(The spares timeline noted above is vague enough to where I wonder at what is embodied in that statistic).

NH90 Development
 

Looks like Aussies and French are starting to team up.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...-force-421028/

Australia and France are investigating a potential joint requirement for a special forces variant of the NH Industries (NHI) NH90 to trim development costs.

With only a small pool of helicopters requiring modification, France would look to share the financial commitment, says Maj Gen Olivier de la Motte, commander, French army aviation.

“We are speaking about a common version at the moment with Australia,” he said on the sidelines of the IQPC International Military Helicopter conference on 18 January. “We could have the same version for both forces.”

French army aviation operates eight Airbus Helicopters H225M Caracals for the mission. However later this decade the Caracals will transfer across to the air force, potentially leaving a capability gap.

Canberra, meanwhile, relies on a fleet of ageing Sikorsky S-70As to support its special operations units.

Both nations have substantial fleets of NH90s on order: Australia will eventually field a fleet of 47 of the troop transports, while the French army will have a 74-strong inventory, having added a six-unit order in January.

No decision has been made on whether to replace the departing H225Ms – either through new helicopters or modifications to the existing fleet – but the service is keen to ensure “we have the same number of airframes for each command”, says an army source.

Its special forces are in the early stages of drawing up the technical specification for any replacement, with the requirements likely to encompass a central trapdoor for fast roping, a rear door gun and changes to the communications suite.

“It is very early in the process,” says the source. “Our special forces would like the NH90, but want them to a certain specification. They make a request and then there will be an answer – yes to everything, yes to some things, or no to everything. Then [if appropriate] they will have to decide what they can do without."