Cheapest helicopter to run?
 

Hi,

Just after some figures....

What 4 seater helicopter would be the cheapest to run for private use? (inc of insurance, fuel economy, maintenance etc)

And do you have the figures to hand?

Cheers

Matt

The old quote of:

"If you have to ask, you can't afford it!"

springs to mind.... :E

Lafite

R44 probably. R44 more ubiq. in the UK but high timers cost more are rebuild time.

Someone wrote "cheapest" and "helicopter" in the same sentence! :p

Perhaps he meant the "least expensive"? :ok:

Cheers

Whirls

The old quote of:

"If you have to ask, you can't afford it!"

springs to mind.... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...ilies/evil.gif

Lafite

The old saying "look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves" springs to mind :*

I prefer money in my pocket not somebody elses

Cheapest 4 seater
 

This is the only one I've found that is truly affordable. And the safety record is impeccable.



http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/t...g?t=1247689459

Build yourself a Hummingbird 260L with the LS7 engine option.

Hummingbird 260L Helicopter kits from Vertical Aviation Technologies

Homebuilt or production?
 

There is a great difference between doc (direct operating costs) of home built vs. production helios. Robinson win's hands down for production units, and as far as I know the hummingbird is the only 4 place homebuilt unit on the market today. Rotorway doesn't have a 4 place unit but they do build a slick 2 seater. Even the Robinson rebuild rates for a helo you already own to be factory rebuilt to new specs is not expensive when you compare it to anyother piston 4 seater. How bout considering a 3 seater from Schwitzer? Have you considered that, or a well maintained Bell 47 for a two place. There's a lot of product out there so take your time and choose wisely, sometimes the retail price may be high but the doc might be less then others on the market, so compare apples with apples and not oranges, or ducks! Good luck and cheers!:ok:

Cheap & helicopter in one sentence! don't understand:E

LEAST EXPENSIVE vs cheap
 

There's no such thing as cheap aviation there is less expensive ways to approach it, homebuilt vs. factory is one way to significantly reduce the cost of operation, Robinson as opposed to Bell in the 4 seater catagory trubine vs piston, etc. Pistons are always less expensive to operate then pistons unless your talking about very old read expensive to insure helios and then its a close horse race. In the 4 seater catagory if you compare Bell Jetranger vs Robinson R44 the 44 is almost sooooo much less to operate and is as fast if not faster then the JetRanger, sure it does'nt have the smell or cool sound of the JetRanger, or a lot of the amenities included in the Bell, but its a significantly less money to own and operate. Sure the hangers are about the same price, but the insurance and fuel are sure a lot more money, as are all the other costs associated with operating and ownership. Inexpensive does not equal cheap in aviation.:D As I said previously choose wisely and do the math on each one you are considering before signing on the dotted line. P.S. There are a few companies that specilize in helping people acquire helicopters like Bowers and others, a very good investment when you consider how complex the purchase of any helicopter is, they handle the pre-purchase inspection and hold your hand thru title insurance, etc, as I said a very wise invenstment on anyone's behalf who's considering the purchase of a new or used helicopter. Try the following link.....
www.bowerhelicopter.com

Warning ! Warning !
 

Princepilot :

As you can see from some of the replies already, the question you have asked is being interpreted in a way you probably ( hopefully ) didn't anticipate .....

There will be those that will hope this isn't followed up with questions like :

"Where can I get the cheapest maintenance ?"

"Where can I get the cheapest / reconditioned / generic spares ?"

"Do I really need to carry out those time consuming pre-Flight checks every time ?"

The phrase "cheapest" in this context will often conjur up such thoughts...:rolleyes:

Perhaps a better question would be :

"Which 4 seater helicopter would provide the best value for money, in terms of Purchase price, Depreciation, Maintenance costs, Running costs, Fuel efficiency etc. based on an estimated xxx hours per year - for private use, and can anyone provide an estimate of the approximate total annual direct operating costs ?"

Having said all that I am not in a position to offer any answers to your question ( however it is worded ), but there are plenty here that can :)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1.../Coconutty.jpg

Horse before cart.
 

First things first- as coconutty has said, there's questions of maintenance/spares, etc in addition to insurance and way more.

Each operator has a set or develops an operating requirement(s). From there, likely candidates are cast and evaluated for selection based on all factors. There is very little subjectivity when all the chips are down- operators usually will fly Bell, S, or AW airframes because they already have spares, operators, and maintainers familiar with said family of airframes.

'tis all getting too far from the helicopter & wrenches, and too close to the offices for my taste though. ;)

Sadly, however hard you look after the pennies, helicopters have a nasty habit of ripping the pounds from your pocket with their untamed rotors and spewing them all over the ground.

You can plan your costs and we all do, but there is no place for 'cheap' and 'helicopter' in the same sentence, as wisely pointed out above.

A preference for money in your own pockets and helicopter ownership may be incompatible lifestyle choices!

... meant only half humorously..... :)

Lafite.

R44's would be a good bet. :ok:

toptobottom,

Thanks very much for this reply.

Ive pm'd you for some advice.

Matt

I'd say a H500C with a C18 is a very economical 4 seat helicopter. Obviously not new, but probably cheaper to run than a 44. :ok:

How do you figure that, Chopjock?

The $/£ rate has shifted significantly since i bought my 44. It cost me appx. £235k including a few bits n bobs, but the same ship would be almost £290k to buy new today.

Assume you do 100 hours as a PPL(H) p.a. Also assume a certain hull value after 12 years and take into account your likely usage over the period you will own the machine and you can easily work out the running costs per hour (if you look on Robinson's web****e, they attempt a similar thing but it's wildly optmistic, of course!).

If you assume an R44 is worth £40k as a timed out hull after 12 years and the cost of a 'standard spec' machine is say £275k to buy new today, the depreciation cost of owning one is (275-40)/2200 = £106 per hour. Add on maintenance, that's 1 x 50hrs plus 1 x 100 hr, an annual and ARC, say £6,500 plus £2,000 for ADs and other unscheduled maintenance, so that's another £85 per hour . Insurance, say £9,000 p.a. so £90 per hour. Finally, fuel (60 litres/hour) and oil, adds £90/hour.

Obviously the cost will vary according to your usage, the timing of scheduled maintenance and 'surprises', but in this case, you can expect a TCO of about £371 per hour. No doubt some people will disagree with my assumptions, but they're welcome to insert their own and do the maths :rolleyes:

Not forgetting the £290k up front to buy it or the cost of financing £290k.
At 5% that is £14500 a year in interest or £145 ph.
Makes you wanna just rent one really?

If it flies, floats or f@@ks, rent it!

Hi,

I wouldnt be buying new and have a budget of £100k so wouldnt need finance.

Seen an enstrom today , do they do a 4 seater? searched but cant find any?

Matt

The Enstrom 480 and 480B turbines will carry 4 (5 at a pinch).

IMO excellent helicopters - especially the latest 'B's - and in a different class to the R44 - smooth, quiet, spacious and very well engineered.

But, 480s will start nearer £200k+ and 480Bs will be £300k ++. Running costs are likely to be higher than the R44 (TT straps every 2 yrs), although Jet A is half the price and depreciation would be less.

I know what it costs to operate because I own one and it's on the N register.

£5000. PA insurance.
£ 15,000 PA maintenance based on 100 hrs / year
£ 40 p/hr fuel

120 kts cruise 18 gph :ok:

That's approx £240 /hr DOC. You should expect to pay less than £200 k for a good one. And they hold their price very well too so perhaps nothing for depreciation.:)

Interesting numbers thanks CJ. The robbo's do get extremely expensive with spiking maintenance cost when the annual hours get below 183. I bet many private owners would not even get to 100/yr.

However I also think you have got lucky with a really nice 500C to keep your maintenance costs down at the level you are seeing.

It is a similarly interesting exercise to compare an R22 to an H269 for exactly the same reasons.

Cheers,
JohnO

Have you considered a part share/club?

I know of a Jetranger that you take one third ownership for about your budget and maintenance costs would be 1/3 of running yourself?

Very easy going guys and nice machine

PM me if interested (not my machine by the way!) I will pass on details

Matt - given your budget and forecast use (30 - 50 hours p.a.). I'd strongly recommend, instead of purchasing a machine solely for your own use, you either:

• SFH
• join a syndicate (Helidata regularly has advertisements for members)
• buy, but negotiate a leaseback deal with a local flying school (I did this with my first machine, an R22, and the profit covered a big chunk of my own flying time :ok:)

TTB

The problem is that there aren't very many syndicates around in the rotary world. There are lots for fixed wing but very few for helos. I looked for ages to find one in sensible driving distance but had no luck, so I wound up buying my own R22. That was 3 years ago and I have never regretted it although the economics do not stack up as I only average 50 hours or so per year. However the sheer convenience of owning makes up for it.

I have a third share in a f/w aircraft which is also under utilised as between the 3 of us we only do about 100 hours per year. Too many aircraft, too little time I guess!

It's a pity that not more low time R44 owners unite, sell their ships, form syndicates all over and buy something real like an AS350 or at least an EC120 :ok:

You could count me in any time. Thinking of it, doesn't that sound like a business plan? Contact, convince and manage brand new helicopters for current R44 owners.

I'm part of a five person syndicate running an Enstrom 480. Very cheap turbine flying and a great machine. £300 pm and £125/hr wet. Don't try to lift more than four people with full fuel though if you want to get off the ground.

A helicopter pilot with a businessplan... where is that going to end??? :}

It is a funny thing considering some of us went into flying helicopters thinking it would make us some money.

ha ha!! It was good to start the syndicate thought process on this thread!

I know of a number of helicopter syndicates in the turbine world, as I say a Jetbox for £100k (which lets face it you will never lose the hull value - may even appreciate) and a third of the running costs in a friendly well run group works every time...

Stand by my offer of making introductions if anybody is willing to put their money where their keyboard is!

Er, don't know of an EC120 (yet!) I am sure that as older machines become available you will see more of them, but with the huge maintenance bills seen by these machines, I would still have reservations......

I would be up for buying into a machine with someone, I have owned a few now but the costs are hard to justify when you do less than 100 hrs a year,
If anyone knows of an underutilised R44 that would like 50 hrs buying on it please PM me.

RB - where are you based?

Enstrom syndicate
 

Is your syndicate on the 480 still running? If so where are you based?

If you are looking at maintenance be aware that the scheduled maintenance is just the start. UNSCHEDULED maintenance kills any attempt at planned expenditure. And be aware that in helicopters, the owner will pay for everything: parts and labour even if the part to be replaced was defective. No it is not fair or reasonable but it is the way it is.

If you do decide to buy an R44 be aware an AD is about to be released that means the blades will have to be upgraded to the latest part no at the owner's expense within 5 years of the AD being published.. As with any helicopter you need to be able to lay your hands on a large amount of cash at short notice if anything breaks and needs replacing. Its that or it sits on the ground broken until you can sell it or save up.

Adam,

We have sold the Enstrom and bought a very nice Hughes 500C. (G-LEEJ) Its hangared at City airport Manchester (Barton). For group members we charge £400/mth and £125/hr wet. We are thinking of releasing a 2 or 3 non equity shares. Contact me if interested.

Steve. 07703-531666

Don't forget how you work the figures out
EG Take one of my 500D's she cruises at 135 kts which is 20% faster than a 206 therefore you use 20% less fuel and parts to do the same job. Only works if you go places, if just up for an hour if hour building makes no difference.