It's all very well being armchair experts, but come on, not speculating on this one, how many accidents have we seen in recent years where a heli has flown into the ground, killing all onboard, due to combinations of inexperience, weather, pressonitis or other.

Having attended the Safety evening last week at Leeds, and looking at the rather sobering pictures of one of Robinsons finest smeared across the landscape due weather related crash. It's really upsetting hearing of more crashes so soon after, no matter the cause. In a perfect world there would be no crashes. In a nearly perfect world, maybe more people would question whether it was sensible to fly, for whatever reason, be it wx issues or pressures.

PPLs and accidents
 

Crab - not sure it's fair to imply that accidents are limited to PPLs and Private Helicopters.

Flying carries a risk, as does everything else we do, and neither PPLs nor CPLs are immune from this.

For my part, I'd like to see it be far more acceptable to take a safety pilot with you on trips, whoever you are and whereever you go.

How many of you CPL types would volunteer your time to sit, FOC, next to a PPL when he is flying his helicopter?

If there's enough interest, I'll get it sorted.

Big Ls.

Biggles99

Dont mind donating some of my time for free, but please bear in mind a lot of us are self employed. Putting a safety pilot in is like buying insurance, expensive when nothing goes wrong and awfully cheap when something does !

Biggles

The fly with a friend thing is something we are working on as part of the helicopter safety initiative, it is however a bit more complicated than it initally sounds.

It got discussed a lot on Thursday last at Leeds. I'll add something to the Informal heli nights thread soon rather than discussing it here or feel free to PM me.

If they do ever see this thread I offer my condolences to the families of the people killed in the Gazelle.

Gary

wg13 dummy,

Loss of life is always a tragedy and I sincerely feel for the families of all concerned.

Since I posted there have been several eyewitness reports quoted in the press supporting a CFIT mechanism for the accident.

In an anonymous forum it is imperative that we preserve the right to express opinion in an inoffensive way in order to prevent further tragedy.

I do not believe I acted offensively.

SB

I think 2 pilots , especially if they dont know each other well and each others abilities is more dangerous than 1 . I once went with somebody as a safety pilot many years ago and was not really certain of their skill level .....with the added confidence of having a cpl and cfi ( albeit low hrs )next to them , they tried for an approach into a site that they would not have done alone . Once they were in a rapid descent with the low rotor horn going and the t/r beginning to lose effect they then handed control over to me :eek: IF it had been a paid job i would have been more ascertive and intervened earlier but as a passenger in their helicopter i felt i had to wait . Never again... also not sure if you can be pic in wrong seat if you are not a cfi . Also taking control when you are in an unusual attitude is hard enough when you are on the side you are used to but more difficult from the co pilot side . Pilots have to take responsibility for themselves and if they are not competent solo they should go back into training or be failed simple as that . If you are talking about helping them fly in bad weather then you should be pic and demonstrate the safe way of going through the bad weather ie which side of high ground to fly on , exit routes etc and the way and right time to turn around or land . I just know somebody is going to say you shouldnt be flying in bad weather but the learning curve is what is bad but doable and what is a NO . This should be part of the training but sadly we are fixated with practicing autos etc ( how many engine failures are there compared to cfit ???? and are missing the real point . Until we target this lack of training i cant see any reason for the stats to change . It will however take somebody far more experienced and respected than me to make that happen .

I'm with NigelH on this..
 

Being accompanied by a safety-pilot appears to have much to commend it.. but there are many ifs and buts. To mention just one case (of many), read the AAIB report into the fatal Cherokee at Blackpool last year. A real tragedy.

I do concede however that, properly thought out, a formal/legal safety-pilot policy could well be a very good thing. Rgds bm :rolleyes:

BoeingMEL

Too true.

GS

I have held a ppl for 10 years and during that time i have always taken a safety pilot. there are two good reason for me appart from the obvious safety one. my insurance was greatly reduced by stating that i would be accompanied by a pilot with a minimun 1000hrs cpl, and i have made alot of great friends. When i think of it i know it is money well spent even in these harder times.

Safety Pilot/Observer
 

Also applies to the AAC.
I lost a great friend in a Scout accident in Northern Ireland in the 70's.
Flying on his own - low level (had to) - middle of the night (returning from ops) - flew into a hill side.
Second Pilot/Observer ?? Not deemed necessary !!
I had been his "second seat" many times over a three year posting in Germany and it was always better to have four eyes rather than two - Luftwaffe Starfighters being favourite and sudden "claggy" weather coming a close second !!

A very sad event and a sad loss ....

The thread is now on a different tack and a new one may need to be started .. However, a safety pilot on Private flights is not the answer here. You can never have to much information on weather on departure and on your arrival destination .... Ultimately its up to P1

Be safe

Agree with that DingDong

I first met “Prudence” in the crew room of 651 Squadron in Verden just before Christmas 1969.

She was dressed in black stockings, suspender belt, six inch stilettos and very little else.

As a flight safety poster she conveyed a simple message

“Fly with Prudence”

Can we take it from the posts so far that the accident investigators have already excluded mechanical failure or pilot incapacitation as possible causes? :confused:

B.

Hi Bronx,
Mechanical failure and pilot incapacitation have not been ruled out. There is an ongoing AAIB investigation into this tragic accident which when published will supercede any speculation thus far.

SB

I agree with others this has now taken a different tack. (Partly my fault) For whatever reason there has been a tragic accident and my condolences goes to the family of the deceased.
R.I.P

smarthawke says:

3 people in an ex-military Gazelle ?

I wonder if this accident will be a watershed for such aircraft operating on a Permit ?

a4fly

Interesting point.

How "Ex Military" are these Gazelles ??

Number of airframe/engine hours ??

Why are they "ex" ?? too knackered for a military role ??

I would say that by civilian standards the aircraft are far from "knackered". The aircraft in question had about 9800 hours (from G-INFO). Some of the ex mil aircraft have been sold off with as little as 2500 hours a great waste of tax payers money. Compare this with the Pumas and S61 operating public transport on the north sea with over 30,000 hours on the clock.

The Gazelle is interesting in that the CAA deemed it inelligible for a C of A when previous ex military light helicopters have been accepted. Bell 47(Sioux), Hiller 12E, Allouette 2.

Amongst other things I believe the engine variant is not civil certified.
Many people believe that the aircraft were restricted to prevent them having an effect on the sales of new civil helicopters. A great shame if true as this is a fine aircraft.

As usual there will be speculation about the actual cause, which may or may not ever be known, and which will continue at least until the AAIB report is published.

Getting back on topic :

The name of the pilot has been officially released, and as suggested earlier is one of the co-owners, Roderick ( Rick ) Paskey.

My personal condolences to his family and those of his passengers, who not only have to deal with their tragic losses, but also with the rumour and speculation that is almost inevitable these days, both within forums such as these, and from the media.

I was not privileged to have known Rick personally, other than through a close family friend, and through having seen the striking colour scheme flying overhead a few times.

I have passed on the the messages of sympathy posted here to Rick's wife Carol, who will let me have details of funeral arrangements when they are known. They will then be posted here.

Meanwhile, Rest in Peace.

Coconutty

Rick Paskey
 

I have known Rick personally for 17 years and have enjoyed flying with him on several occasions. Having flown in a number of Royal Navy helo's I have to say that Rick always filled me with admiration and confidence. His skill and attention to safety was first class in every way.
As usual after such incidents there will be speculation from many quarters, some helpful and others not so helpful. Due to the extensive damage sustained following the impact and subsequent prolonged fire on board, it might be that we shall never know the real cause for the incident. But what ever the reason, be it CFIT, instrument or mechanical failure, the fact remains that a tragic accident occured which has devastated the lives of three families. :sad: RIP

I have no comment to make on the main topic of this thread, other than condolences .



On the safety pilot issue, 1. some are only two seats
2. I went along as second pilot(safety pilot) with a friend, I expressed great concern in some deteriorating weather we encountered , and insisted we land . He took such exception to this "interference" in front of his friends that he is now an ex friend

tacr2man,

Sounds like yer ex pal was on a big ego trip... Just what we need in our delicate aviation community. I applaude your tactful use of CRM (calculated risk management) :ok: Friends like that you don't need....

Very sad to hear this.

Thought the RAF number seemed very familiar; I flew the airframe in question on many occasions during my time on the QHI course at CFS and instructing at 1 Sqn at Shawbury, albeit some 24 years ago.

Also very sad about all this.

(Shy.....same here (QHI, etc)...my last trip in that airframe, Sept 26 1990.

so any outcome yet, was it fog? as earlier suggested, poor vis and a bad call on the day by the pilot, unfortunately it will come out as that by what has been said

Ragman,

Welcome to 'prune.

As you appear to be relatively new here I guess you might not realise that the findings of the AAIB will be published in due course after a very thorough examination of all the known facts.

This may take many months or even over a year.
( Although an Interim report may be published sooner than that with any initial findings. )

It is only 8 days since this unfortunate incident, and it has not yet been possible to even formally identify some of those on board,
let alone determine the cause.

Hmmm - Fortunately the AAIB findings will not "come out" as a result of the comments on here !

Coconutty

If it was operating on a permit to fly, can you have 3 people on board? Thought it was only meant to be essential people ie 2. Either way condollences to familliesand friends.

Thanks Coconutty,
someone has suggested the heli is on a permit to fly only? if so why do pilots put themselves in this position of carrying people? was this a charter flight with fog in the area, it doesnt read too good for those left on the ground,

The only mention of not carrying passengers with a Permit to Fly is a charity flight. See the link provided by FWF

Cheers got it now

My understanding of the number of people inhabiting an ex-military Gazelle was that it is normally only allowed to fly two up - back seaters could only be carried if they were 'ground crew'. Presume that was the case in this tragic case.

Not just a blanket number of max people for a 'Permit' aircraft.

yes me also smarthawke, maybe its changed but I doubt it

Just found this thread - very sad for all involved. First flew that airframe in '76, and last flew it in '96.

As promised here are the service details for Roderick Paskey,
( also known as Rick or Rod by friends and business acquaintances ),
which his partner Carol has asked be circulated to those who knew him.

All are welcome to attend the service, burial and / or reception.

Friday 21st November @ 1100 Hrs - Fazeley Parish Church
St. Paul's Church
Coleshill Street
Fazeley
Staffordshire
B78 3RQ

Followed by burial at Sutton New Hall Cemetery @ 1230 Hrs
Lindridge Road
Sutton Coldfield
West Midlands
B75 7HX

A Reception will then be held at Drayton Manor Park.

Anyone not wishing to attend the service or burial, are welcome to attend the Reception,
where they will be joined by family and friends after the internment.

Family flowers only please, donations in lieu to Cancer Research after the service,
or via Co-Op Funeral Service, Tamworth.

Coconutty

Ragman, it hasn't changed - the restrictions are written in the AAN for each aircraft. See here:

http://www.caa.co.uk/aandocs/28593/28593000000.pdf

k12479

but this is only the caa permit to test not the permit to fly

Details of the passengers have now been released.

They were Lawrence Bailey and Danielle Fleming.

Condolences and sympathy to the families of all involved.

Coconut

MD 600,

This one? - http://www.caa.co.uk/aandocs/28593/28593000100.pdf

Thats the aan i looked for one of my old permits for the gazelle and they must have all been binned i have one getting a new permit to fly shortly i will post what it says on the permit

steve