Banner Towing by Helicopter
 

What are the regs regarding banner towing in the UK from an R44?
If the banner is not for hire or reward can a PPL, with the approved equipment legaly tow one?

G-ROAR;

I flew the Cabair banner system when it was first introduced. The CAA stipulated a twin and we jumped through months worth of hoops including trial flights and a lot of crew training, both pilots, observers and ground crew.

AFAIK the Cabair system is the only one approved by the CAA and they stipulated professional licenses with a minimum number of hours of underslung work.

Banner towing demands a lot of respect from those involved as it is incredibly easy to get it terribly wrong, with highly public, and probably fatal results.

PM me if you want to know more.

VH

they do it in portugal with a jetdanger

Dear ARUBA Helitours
 

Can you tell me:

• the VNE you used when towing,
• the length of rope/wire
• weight of 'counterbalance' on the end
• weight of the banner

:confused:

What's an "Avoid Curve" anyway?

Cap 426
 

You don't tow it behind .. you sling it under. !? ..

whats wrong with this exactly in your opinion???

Some of you guys are so risk averse to practical applications involving rotary wing flight that I wonder if you ever fly your heliocpters or just leave them parked and do routine maintenence on them.
Either that or you must work for a regulatory agency.

Thanks VH for the info.
If we need to progress things I will e mail you. Cheers, much appreciated.:ok:

I'm not a "prude" by any stretch of the imagination, but flying an R44 or R22 within the H/V diagram curve is not something I'll ever do for love or money.

Have just under 1400 hrs in them instructing and commercial work if it matters...

Highpeaks,

If you've been around here for a while, you might have noticed that there is often a difference in attitude with regard to risk from US/FAA pilots and EU/JAA (esp UK/CAA) pilots.

If I was to generalise, I would say that US/FAA pilots are often willing to accept a certain level of risk. On the other hand, EU/JAA pilots will try to minimise the level of risk in anyway possible. (For 'pilots', also read 'regulatory bodies').

For empirical evidence, please compare the recent accident rates in the respective EMS and offshore industries.

Bravo,
I would agree with you that UK pilots are considerably more risk averse but I would argue that that difference is based on the type of operations conducted and the scale of those operations in our respective areas. I suppose I cant blame an offshore or ems pilot, from either side of the pond, for looking at someone essentially longlining from an R44 and deem it 'unsafe' out of hand.
The leading cause of accidents will always be people running into stuff and not engine failures in the HV curve. As far as your ascertation regarding emperical evidence as pertains to accident rates I would ask that you point me in the direction of a study that bears that out. There are considerably more hours flown in both sectors, especially ems, flown in the US than the UK and Im not aware of any statistics where that difference in scale is accounted for.
My point is that for people who come from a place where real utility flying is rare at best, just about anything but straight and level looks 'unsafe' or 'completely barking' as SilsoeSid put it so eloquently. Some of us dont like being called 'completely barking' for doing our jobs- its a different story when we're on the ground :).

I'snt that something we called "Deadmans Curve" many years ago?:D

What does Robinson say about slinging from an R44 ?? anybody know ?? If robby say its ok then I dont see what the fuss is really as long as your within the lines .. Does Robby supply a line release system to dump your load if the donkey gives in ?? ..

On a side note, I did see a hughes300 moving a horse by a sling in NZ last year, wish I had a camera at the time.

Fark,

Maybe we could update the terminology to a "Not dead yet, but trying!....man's curve":}

Highpeaks,

Hmmm, I think that you need to read my post again. I was just giving you a reason behind some of the comments. (ie 'you' are willing to accept a certain level of risk. 'We' try to do anything to limit the risks involved. This is different to your term: 'risk averse'.) If this means using 2 engines for banner towing work (and hence exposing ourselves to a much, much smaller h/v curve), then so be it.

I'm not looking to start a p!ssing contest.

Me neither freind, I wasnt trying to sound judgemental or confrontational in my post. My apologies if I did. I was simply sharing my thoughts as to why those differences exist. We all have to operate in our own operational idium and we all try to do everything we can to ameliorate risk. My operational idium doesnt allow for an excessively and prohibitively expensive twin engine helicopter to tow a billboard around the sky. Or to sling water buckets, or chrismas trees, or seedlings, or hay bales, or a thousand other things that are slung from single engine helicopters. If I bid that type of work with a twin I wouldnt have any work.

If I, or for that matter most of my colleagues as pilots, refuse a mission like this then there is no food on the table. Do I wish that I could fly in an environment with no risk? Yes. Is it possible? No. Anyone who slings from a single will agree or they wouldnt be doing it.

Over here we dont call it the 'waiting to die' or 'dead mans curve' or 'not dead yet but trying curve'...we call it the money curve and not because its fun to be there. Its how we make a living. I just ask that those with the luxury of not having to take any risk dont question my judgment because you dont share the same operational requirements as I do.

I am with you high peaks, banner towing is just another job to be done. we spend month after month in the jungles of the world in the hover at the end of a 100 to 200 feet longline and love every minute of it and the money it brings. I am glad that some of these "professionals" would never do it, they will die wondering while we have all the fun.

What amazes me is that they think it is dangerous. there may be an element of danger but you don't think about it. if you are that worried get into another profession.

"Flying in the h/v curve is something that I would never do for love or money" certainly reduces your employment prospects in the real helicopter industry.

get a life, and have some adventure. :}

money curve
 

well said High Peaks, my sentiments entirely. It's all about acceptable risk and getting a job done.

I have never been involved in twin operations in 25 years in rotary ops but i have seen an awful lot of money curve work carried out by singles very succesfully.

You wil notice that I specifically mentioned the R22 and the R44.... I just personally don't much care for their "crashworthyness"

By the way, I'm done flying Robbies and seem to be doing ok so far in this industry we love.

Fly safe (as you can) fellas ! :-)