There is no way to put 2 pilots in a 407 and carry a patient. The patient goes in with the head in the rear, and the feet where the copilot's seat used to be. No way, no how. You need something much larger to use 2 pilots.

I'll take TAS or TCAS in a heartbeat if I can get it. It shows traffic you would never know was there without out it.

I do many more scene flights than transfers, probably about 70/30 on the ratio. Don't be quite so fast talking about something you don't know everything about.

ST, I should have clarified that one. In the case of this accident its pretty remote in comparison to being in downtown Chicago whatever. Its just more weight out here. I admit if someone gave it to me I would use it, but again in remote areas, operators wont make the investment.
They have these things loaded down so much I rarely take off over 50Ks under max gross. Throw in some heat for the desert and restrictions start applying.
Two Pilots, forget it. Nobody will pay for two pilots and most of the EMS ships could not hold them.
We can throw in all kinds of variables, but in this particular case many I have talked to agree. See and Avoid, talk on the radio......

Interesting incident reported today on CONCERN network
 

Date: 5/27/08 PDT
Program: CALSTAR4833 Bailey loopMcClellan, CA
Type: BO 105Tail #: N477CS
Operator/Vendor: Own Part 135
Weather: Clear. Not a factor
Team: Pilot, FN, FN. No injuries reported.. No injuries reported. Patient on board.

Description: CALSTAR aircraft was on approach to hospital pad with patient aboard. The pilot had to take evasive action to avoid a public agency Bell 205on a collision course. The Bell 205 aircraft never changed course,therefore it can be assumed the CALSTAR aircraft was never seen bythem. The CALSTAR pilot made repeated attempts to contact the other aircraft via all known common use radio frequencies. The landing was delayed as the other aircraft remained in the area, thus creating a hazard. After many attempts, the other aircraft was contacted and the landing was completed safely.

Additional Info: The agency operating the 205 was contacted shortly afterward and they have agreed to monitor 123.050 MHz when flying in the vicinity of hospital helipads. Subsequently, CALSTAR is seeking support for a statewide HEMS radio frequency. A meeting of all California HEMS operators has been scheduled for later this month to discuss the issue and devise procedures to avoid collisions.

Source: Louie Bell, Director of Flight Operations

Hmmm seems public safety aircraft are a law unto themselves recently, This is from an "unfiled" safecom:

While repositioning from Falcon Field to the Goldfield helibase, we had an encounter with a sheriff helicopter. We did NOT get closer than 500 feet, however the situation could have been avoided.

We had been based at the helibase for about 4 or 5 days but had decided to re-position the aircraft to a secure airport at nights over the holiday weekend due to the high number of visitors in the forest river area. When we first arrived in Arizona, we had been briefed on the frequencies in use by helicopters in this area. During the flight to the helibase, I called inbound, on the appropriate frequency, (123.025), at 5nm and asked if ANY traffic was in the area. I got NO response.

Two days earlier, there had been a drowning less than 1,000 feet from the base, and the body had not yet been found, we decided to do a slow flyover the river on our approach to the base, to put extra eyes on the river. AGAIN I blind announced our intentions on 123.025. As we were flying along the river--the firefighter in the front left seat pointed to helicopter flying the river about 50 feet below us and about 500 feet away. We broke off and landed at the helibase without incident.

I called the helicopter now above us on 123.025, and he stated he was with "DPS" and that he had heard my calls but was too "busy" to respond.

I have worked HEMS for 8 years in a relatively (for the UK) remote area. In my opinion the addition of TCAS to our 902, just over 2 years ago, has been a real 'eye opener' for our flight safety environment.

Our average sector time time is just 8 minutes and we rarely transit above 500 ft. (There are fairly busy military instrument patterns above our area)

In the last couple of years a number of light fixed wing and rotary 'contacts', very close to us, operating from new, unpublished private sites, have really proved the worth of installing a verbal alerting TCAS system.

(It is also a godsend every time when lifting from rural HEMS sites, before climbing through the 250 ft low level military fast jet band.)

Totally agree, Bertie! My biggest "eye opener" about TCAS has been just how many aircraft appear on it but can't be seen until very late, sometimes not at all.

The other thing I notice is how many pilots of light aircraft fail to give way to the right, or take very late avoiding action. I can only assume they don't see my aircraft (which paints a small profile), rather than not knowing the "right of way" rules.

The limitations of the human eye... :8

These days, even by day, I put the landing lights on if it looks like something on TCAS is coming my way, which hopefully does help the other pilot.

If TCAS isn't working, I feel quite vulnerable; not because I can't look out (I do, believe me, I do!) but because I know how good it is, provided of course that other aircraft are using a transponder, which is a separate argument.

very sad. My thoughts and prayers are with them and their families.

God Speed

Clint

ST your not the same guy who stated. My GPS failed, how can I get there??

Ha Ha:ugh:

Been monitoring the thread and,IMHO, here is why we have a problem:
Read the posts again. Everybody here has a solution to fix the problem "immediately". The problem is the variation.TCAS,NVG, twin engine, two pilots, autopilot,communication etc, etc, etc. If the regualtors come and ask for an educated opinion on what will fix the issue, from 10 pilots nation- wide, they will get ten different answers.:confused:
No wonder we are in the state we are in.Meanwhile, the operators are laughing all the way to the bank.The multiple choice they have is: all of the above, none of the above and some of the above. Guess which costs the least? :EAnd so the 'glacial' pace of change continues------.:ugh:
Alt3

(Sadly, as usual, a serious thread rapidly degenerates into unnecessary personal insults, due to someone with a chip, trying to score personal points and boost his own failing ego).

Sousa, I think not. My first fourteen years flying of military flying was done without GPS, in fact without any real navaids at all, so I'm well able to cope, thank you. I did have to get used to using GPS during my last four years or so, but that was nearly fifteen years ago now.

These days, my aircraft has two IFR GPSs, twin VOR /DMEs, and ADF, but I never switch 'em on, even in cloud, because it's far more macho not to, just like you prefer...... Obviously, when in solid IMC I also fly both engines in manual and the SAS switched off, just to stop me getting bored because there's nothing to look at outside. :rolleyes:

So be a good boy and get back in your box.

GPS fails? Use your map, that's what your license standard says you can do. If you can't do that you're in the wrong business.

Public safety aircraft and freq use? 'Safety' obviously has to be defined to them - we have trouble with police agencies in our area refusing to monitor and use 123.025, acting as if they own the airspace. No worry though, I'm told in the US the FAA will be coming up with a HEMS heliport frequency via FCC very soon, and possibly mandate its use - if so, problem solved, sort of.

2 pilots? Obviously a money, space and WAT performance issue - unless government mandate its phase-in. Then the operators will have to sort it out.

The thing that boggles my mind is currently operators and government keep piling the pseudo-solutions, admin and decision making matrices on to pilots rather than improving communications to them in real-time to help answer their questions as ongoing go/no-go decision making evolves, whether on ground or airborne. Pilots definitely have only so much brain power and awareness - there are limits as to how much can be accurately dealt with in a relatively short period of time.

WIII

This thread has nothing to do with GPS, or navigation, so what's the point of mentioning it, except in the context of personal insults?

Those who have been lucky enough to fly with TCAS and use it properly swear by it as a safety aid. Stubbornly and in ignorance, those who aren't so fortunate sometimes prefer to pretend a better way doesn't exist. I think I'm correct in saying that all UK police / HEMS helicopters have it, also many UK military aircraft and for good reason. The police helicopter that I used to fly had it fitted part way through my time in that job and it became very welcome; I'm convinced it saved me on more than one occasion.

This accident might have been prevented by it. Effective lookout FAILED in this tragic case, just as it did in the case of the news helicopter mid-air, not too long back. All four of these dead pilots were probably (not surprisingly) concentrating their gaze on something else. In this case a landing at a helipad, in the earlier case a ground incident. TCAS might have saved ALL of those lives. :(

Shy,

One might also consider the mid-airs that occur in formation flight. In a similar manner, news aircraft are drawn to an event like flies to honey. As they do their work in close proximity to one another at times, TCAS/TAS might not be as helpful as hoped. Once they get close and tell Madam to hush up....it reverts to keeping a weather eye out for the opposition.

What confuses me about the EMS collision is why the receiving hospital was not talking to the aircraft and thus be able to warn the pilots of the other's presence.

I would find it hard to believe one would just fetch up on the doorstep and wheel a patient in the door. That was never the protocol at the multiple EMS locations I flew at or had knowledge of.

SASless:
It is quite possible that they had different dispatch centers for the two aircraft.In that case a breakdown in intra and inter agency communication might have added to the links in the accident change. The factor of a changed ETA of one of the helicopters(don't want to mention the name of the program) also played a role.He stopped at the airport for 7 minutes to drop off his medic because of WAT considerations. It eventually boils down to the pilots but I can think of at least three or four other people who were asleep at the switch.
Alt3

Some hospitals have no radios at all, and the only way to talk to them is by telephone. That may have been the case here, where both aircraft were apparently on an ATC frequency. If the hospital is inside controlled airspace as this one is, you have to talk to ATC, either tower or approach control. Since they were both talking to ATC, the only logical thing to do is increase controlled airspace. [/sarcasm] That's what the FAA did after the San Diego midair, and the result was TCAs, now Class B airspace.

I was talking to an approach control a couple of days ago, and was notified of another helicopter ahead of me, with several calls as it changed direction. I finally saw it, and its dark paint, about 1/4 mile away, just below me, blending into the trees. Knowing it was somewhere ahead, and actively scanning, I couldn't see it until I was very close. Without the calls from approach, I probably would never have seen it. With a TAS, I would have known exactly where it was. I would love to have one installed. They aren't perfect, but they're far better than nothing.

Hear, hear, precisely the point I was trying to make before someone started casting aspersions on my personal credentials.

If the other aircraft has Mode C, at least some vertical separation can be given, R/T working or not.

Regarding the weight penalty, I've been idling my time this evening doing some research. Modern TCAS / TAS equipment fits can weigh in at less than 20 pounds. Twenty pound less fuel time on scene has got to be worth giving up to help prevent another tragic accident. I suggest you folks flying aircraft without it start to make suitable noises to those in charge.

We heli pilots, especially given the demanding environment we all are required to work in, need everything going for us, not just a half-hearted gesture about R/T procedures or apportioning blame. I've been flying with TCAS / TAS for almost ten years now, over twenty years before without. I know it enhances flight safety and in my opinion, it's therefore a technology WELL worth pursuing by all.

SASless, In a close formation the leader flies with transponder and TCAS on, the others turn theirs off. No false alerts, no transponder garbling.

Shy,

You missed my point I think...even planned formation flight sometimes results in mid-airs.

When two or more aircraft occupy the same small airspace such as news choppers do....they would find the TCAS/TAS alerts bothersome and in all probability would "tune" them out...thus negating their value.

Way back in time....in a land far away....we in the Army had accepted left hand orbits to be the standard when we found ourselves working around a point on the ground. Even if we were not on the same radio frequency, this allowed us to maintain some sort of separation.

One day...along comes an Air Force OV-10 Forward Air Controller who for some unknown reason elected to orbit to the right.....smack into a AH-1G Cobra. The two Cobra guys died...the Air Force guys ejected and were picked up by one of the Army helicopters.

News guys all want a good shot of the action....and thus will sometimes find themselves as conflicting traffic to others even if unintentionally.

If planned formations can have problems....imagine what dangersad hoc events can engender.

Well, give me one and let me turn it off if I want to. With the ones I've used, though, there isn't a problem. You can select the range you want, and just cancel the audio if necessary. I don't consider that to be a problem at all, compared to the chance (likelihood) of not seeing other traffic. I'll take more info, and filter out what I don't want, as opposed to having no info in the first place.

SASless, Yes, I agree, but inter-formation collisions should be minimised by a briefing and SOPs, not by any gizmo inside the cockpit, that's certainly not what TCAS was designed for. Having said about briefing and SOPS, my No. 2 once came extremely close to taking us all out in a Puma by not following standard procedures, having lost sight of me during a low level tactical formation, so I know nothing is infallible. We saw the whites of each others' eyes... he also saw the inside of the boss's office shortly after landing, as the boss was my co-pilot that day, to explain why he crossed the lead of the formation from left to right at 110 degrees, having cut a big corner off the route!

I think the case of multiple aircraft buzzing around each other once on the scene of a news job and aware of other aircraft is really a separate issue. You haven't said if you have regularly used TCAS or not, but believe me, if a pilot gets a TCAS advisory warning his eyes definitely go out on stalks unless he's stupid and deaf too. Were those two aircraft in the "news accident" actually aware that they weren't alone in that part of the sky, or were they completely aware of each other but still got it badly wrong? In any event, although some types might allow the audio warning to be muted (mine doesn't) the "targets" on the screen still remain, with a relative altitude.

It appears that these EMS helicopters pilots we began discussing were possibly completely unaware of the presence of each other until they hit. That is where TCAS is most useful, to give an alert of another aircraft before it becomes a threat. It doesn't replace lookout, rather the opposite, it reminds the pilot to enhance his lookout.

I think it is a huge shame that these aircraft didn't have TCAS fitted; perhaps the FAA might consider this as a requirement for this type of operation. By mandating its use alongside a transponder, it would give a level playing field to everyone competing in this market.

It's also a shame that the last sentence needed to be said.

NTSB Prelim
 

4 pages with timeline of comms between aircraft and comm centers.


http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/GenPDF.asp?...08MA116A&rpt=p