Knowing When to Die in a Ditch...
 

The recent AW-139 crash in the Gulf has raised an issue that has long been festering in my rapidly failing mind.
Nowhere do we get taught how to diplomatically deal with difficult people, or get any training on when to make yourself self-employed rather than compromise safety.
I'm sure there are lots of good examples of how to do this - anyone care to share experiences so we can all learn???

What can you do? Apart from if a pilot is unusually reluctant to make themselves heard as a characteristic (rare when dealing with something in which they are trained and confident anyway), it really is a matter of the realities prevailing.

If that's how it intransigently is out in the Gulf, as acknowledged by several posters, then maybe if people look elsewhere for employment (simplistic I know), then after a lean time, the employers might eventually listen? Or maybe not. Very wealthy and powerful people can sometimes dance only to their own tune. Insurance voided? So what... peanuts. Illegal? ...not in this country if I say not.

From what I've read about this case, maybe the only course of action was for both pilots to give each other the nod and simply climb out without speaking and walk away from the aircraft. No job, but no accident. Or notice a worrying "fault" with the helicopter at start-up?

This is something that I cover in my CRM courses, having been slung off a job once or twice for refusing to perform certain functions, and even having to threaten to counteract violence. I worked for a company once that responded to a request to change a female pilot because her boobs didn't bounce as much as the other one employed by the company. The fact that she had also refused to take a heavy helicopter out of a very small hole appeared to have nothing to do with it. This was in Canada, a place where passengers on the oil patch routinely refuse to wear shoulder straps in the front seat, so it's not only in the Gulf that this stuff happens. This one resulted in a stand-up argument in the ops room with senior management who were simply too stupid to realise they were digging themselves into a deeper hole. And don't get me started on refuelling helicopters with the engine running and nobody at the controls (yes, I know there are circumstances in really remote place where it just might be acceptable, but not when there is a medic sitting in his van all day reading novels).

Before I started flying I was very lucky (if you can call it that) to be in Transport & Movements (in the Army) and telling Generals (as a corporal) that they couldn't get on planes back to UK. Believe me, in the military, you soon learn to be diplomatic in such circumstances! If I got a really stroppy one all I had to do was invite him to pick up the phone and speak to the other General on the end of it.

As one who has been there, I can assure younger pilots of one thing, that, a walk on the wild side though it is, you simply have to say NO sometimes and risk your job. You might lose it, yes, but the results come back in spades some time later, because this industry is very small and the people that are worth knowing and working for hear about it and you will get work in the right place. This is not to say you should be rude to customers, but you must be firm and stick to your guns. The ultimate, of course, was Hugh Dowding who told Churchill he wasn't going to have any more Spitfires sent to France, but the principle is the same.

"I'm sorry sir, I can't put you on that frozen lake because I don't know the state of the ice, especially as you've just drilled a big hole through it, but I can land you on the shore and you can walk 50 meters across to it."

There's the key - always offer an alternative if possible. Look them in the eye, do it politely but firmly, and you will eventually be respected.

One way of looking at it is to realise that people who are putting the pressure on want something that you have, so you really have the upper hand, if you think about it.

Good luck!

Phil

"I have never taken disagreement as an indication that I am wrong."

Enoch Powell

Politeness is the key........
 

I guess this would be an opportunity for us old buggers to regale Ppruners with some amusing stories but perhaps they are best shared over a glass of ale. Suffice it to say that when the 'wheels' get to review the detail of a problem day you can only be 'in the right' if you have been correct and polite.

Paco is right, try to offer an alternative or try to appear to be in hot pursuit of a 'Plan B'.

When asked by the UN to do yet another daft 'mission impossible' I would tell the crew to fly to the mountains then come back and simply say that the weather in the mountains was impassable. We were happy that nobody was embarrassed by saying 'No thanks, that's a daft idea' and the UN guys thought we were magic to at least give it a try.

Trying to thwart the whims of omnipotent potentates will take some doing but a sudden mechanical problem (oil leak? vibe? funny noise?) could force a delay to proceedings that let the moment pass without confrontation. After all, it is their hide as well as yours. You never know, it may even result in a brown envelope or a new Rolex instead of a plane ticket home.

It has always made the hairs on my neck stand on end when you survey the photos of an accident the day after and see how good the weather is and
how calm the day seems. If only they had not been so keen to do that flight - if only they had waited 24 hours...... sometimes less.

These people should not die without the lessons being learnt otherwise it is a waste. We owe it to their memory to look, listen and learn.

G

The best piece of advice I have been given was from a former Squadron Commander when i was a lowly first-tourist Puma pilot in the RAF. I incorperate this principle into my everyday routine and it works very well in tricky situations and accords with PACOs recommendation of offering an alternative course of action.

His words to me were; "Don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions!"

JJ

The Word 'NO.'
 

Paco, My Dear Fellow,
:ok:!! If I might add: We all need to remember what we are paid to do, what our responsibilities are, and to whom we will answer.
In my 40 odd years, I have always run the route of being politically correct as long as possible, then varying levels of 'no-nesses', from thence to 'What part of NO don't you understand?'
Yes, we might lose the paycheck, BUT, we are alive to seek another, and more importantly - our consciences are clear, and as stated before - this industry is very small. One developes a reputation. I would rather mine be of a sensible nature - which, thankfully - it is.
1) Responsibility,
2) Responsibility,
3) When in doubt refer to # 1 and 2 above.
Responsibility is twofold:
1) To our selves
2) To our passengers.
When in doubt, refer to #1 and 2 above.
To err on the side of safety is not an invitation to damnation.

Shawn

Thanks for bringing up the topic, it's a well-worn subject and, as in the Gulf 139 case, has cost lives in the past, and most likely will cost lives again in the future.

Many of those who made the "wrong" decision have been remembered by friends and colleagues as one whom they thought would never have done such a thing - yet they did, and there's never an explanation available as to why. The scariest part of reading about accidents which have followed either a mechanical failure and subsequent emergency or poor decision-mkaing and subsequent emergency is wondering "What would I have done in the same situation?"

I know some people who scoff at what they see as the foolish performance of their peers, but if I've learned nothing else in the 51 years I've been on this earth, I've learned that there is nobody so perfect they can stand in judgement of others.

In practice, having had all sorts in the back over the years, offering an alternative is still the gentler and more effective way to let them down. As noted already, trenchant digging-in of heels tends not to go down too well.

Ultimately, there is no training for it. The day it happens, you'll have to take that nervous deep breath all on your own and try to hide your anxiety while you deliver what you hope will at least seem to be a calm and polite reason why they can't have exactly what they want.

The aircraft belongs to the company, the licence to fly it is mine.

Fly safe, all - and God speed to the departed!

22

As a lower-time pilot I’ve done some things that I know now and knew then I shouldn’t have done – just because it was what was expected of me. It’s always going to be hard for younger pilots to take a principled stand, even if they know better…

As Jors Troolie mentions, operators can help all of their pilots out by establishing very clear, written policies for what can and can’t be done. Sometimes it’s easier to deal diplomatically with a customer if you have a piece of paper you can point to as your authority. (Of course, this doesn’t help when the operator is the one putting the pressure on, but it’s a start.)

I fail to see the issue. If you let an amateur override your judgement, then you have failed in your professional duty.

The owner / customer can only take your job if you don't give them what they want.

The CAA can take your licence if you do!

However, if you let anyone pressure you into compromising safety you'll possibly lose everything.

cmwangs:

Thanks for your addition! Sadly, the industry has allowed the customer past a line that should have been firmly stuck to long ago, and as a result it is now influenced largely by the uneducated (or ignorant). We take on too many of other peoples' problems and it's about time it was stopped.

One example is the case of a pilot who was reminded, when he wanted to pull the job for weather, that if he didn't get the passengers to their destination in the next half hour they were going to lose $50,000. So what?

We should certainly have more support from management in this respect.

Phil

Had an aircraft go tech on a rig, one passenger being the master of a jack up that was due to be moved. Company wanted a second aircraft to land on the rig to pick up the master so the jack up could move as it was costing mega bucks while sitting idle. Our manual allowed a second aircraft to land on a rig but only to drop an engineer to fix the broken aircraft and was not allowed to be carrying any other passengers. Much agrivation from management about money up the spout but pilot merely asked for signed approval from the CEO to carry out the requested task, guess what, no one was willing to put it up to the CEO.

Y ken

It is easy to make sound and carefully considered decisions from the safety of the chair behind one's desk or from the comfort of a crewroom somewhere. As I said earlier, many people have gone to meet their maker on foot of decisions their colleagues would say was not in keeping or out of character. There is never any way of knowing quite why they elected to do what they did.

Shawn asked about training for such situations and, despite many briefings and discussions and even a bit of role-play if you could gather a few willing subjects, it isn't possible in my view, to prepare for these situations other than to be clear in your own mind as to what it is you will or will not do. In my short time as an instructor, I encouraged students to ask themselves a question before deciding on a particular course of action - "How would this look in any post-accident analysis?" If the answer was not good, then don't do it.

The problem remains, however, is that ultimately, as I said already, you have to stand completely alone and announce your position to those who will not be pleased to hear it.

Failing in professional duty may sound nice but it won't carrry any weight standing in a field on a mucky day faced with passengers who aren't going to be going home quite when they expected.

Ultimately, the difference between the amateur and the pofessional is that the professional is lucky enough to get paid for doing something where the amateur cannot. The decision-making ability rests entirely with the individual, whether a paid professional or not.

22

Safety first
 

Like Paco, I first learned to say no in the military. I've lost count of the number of Field and General grade officers I've told that I couldn't do one thing or another because it's not safe. Once you trot that word out, everyone starts to have second thoughts. In my last assignment, I got in hot water a couple of times because I refused to fly overweight (we still did the mission, but with half as much cargo as they originally wanted to take) and refused to fly overwater without the required safety equipment onboard. In both instances, I was exonerated, but my name was mud and this led to me finally deciding to leave the service, a decision I have always regreted. Sometimes the result of saying no isn't that great.

I've been flying in the offshore business for years now and find the same rule applies, tell them it's not safe and they will back down immediately. As Chief Pilot, I would never ask a pilot to do something I wouldn't do myself, and if I have to duke it out with a client over a pilot's decision to turn down a request, so be it. I just tell them it's not safe and everything changes. To their credit, all of our past and present customers are really good about accepting the pilot in command's decision, and normally don't question it.

If reason will not prevail and you want to break the aircraft in a hurry, pull a circuit breaker or two. That will "fix" things in a hurry. The safety of the aircraft and it's passengers is ultimately the pilot in command's responsibility, but I've always been more inclined to worry about that guy in the front seat!

Great replies.
So in the case in point, if the pilot relegated to the back end had heard something he really, really didn't like coming from the back of the helicopter, (the avionics bay, perhaps), or thought he smelled smoke that might have been a way to get the whole thing stopped.
Interesting thought. We need more innovative ways to say no!

Battery contactor....

Shawn

Always assuming that the person in the front is in a condition to act on the information ;)

Phil

Mmmmm ...


A very difficult problem ..... years ago I got over this difficulty by having my 2 elder children hand write a letter to me .... it basically reminded me to "not take any silly chances when flying my helicopter, not to do anything stupid and to come home safely!" ...... it was signed by them (along with their then ages 6 & 5 yrs respectively).

I carried this letter with me in my wallet and whenever one of those moments arrived I told the recalcitrant that I was not authorised to comply with their request and showed them the letter. It was amazing the effect it had.

Cheers :\


BTW ..... An extremely good thread this one !

F++king brilliant Spinwing!

I like that 1 spinwing. You'd have to be 1 heartless bastard to argue with that. Now I just gotta find me some kids!!!

I used to fly for one client who, if I said something along the lines of, "I don't think we should do this today," would ask the obvious question, "Why?"

"I'm not happy with it," replied I.

Immediately, hands up, "If you're not happy with it, then neither am I. We can do it tomorrow," he'd say. Fantastic. There's not many clients like that.

The trick was figuring out how many times a week I could get away with it.


In my very dim and distant past, I once read the art of diplomacy defined as being able to tell a person to go to Hell in such a way that he would look forward to the journey.

The No word.
 

I could be accused of banging on, but this is what I think.

After 40 odd years in various cockpits, I am fast approaching the age of mandatory retirement where my company is concerned; even so, my days of provoking providence are far from over. After long hours of contemplation and cleansing, I believe there is light at the end of this ‘No’ tunnel. Reading through this thread as well as the cause for a location shift, there remains, in my opinion, one single and reasonable answer.

Let us therefore seek the root, and the tree, so to speak, will follow. We all seek a number of illusive variables to which our supreme training can be applied lavishly that will prevent any call on our superior talents. I do not believe in the existence of ‘the perfect company’, simply because each one of us is an individual placing different values on different aspects of our personal preferences and requirements. However, the bottom line is always to be given the chance to complete a day’s work in an atmosphere of safety, with acceptable guidelines and risks, and recognition for a job well done. Our varying personalities direct us in different directions to seek that system which suits us best, which is not always found the first time around. The inclination to remain in a non-suitable situation is a strong one due in no small part to out existing responsibilities – financial or otherwise, which then is adapted into a false zone of security. This falsehood begins to wear thin after a while and the griping begins. There are three groups of people in this world: Those who make thing happen, those who watch things happen, and those who wonder what happened; it might be good to decide to which group we belong as an individual, then plan and act accordingly.

Part and parcel of our profession is fierce competition, both from within the ranks of our respective employers, and from us in terms of personal pride and a determination to be recognized – purely a natural human trait. Our employers are faced with monthly leases or mortgages due to worrying Bank Managers, the sum of which are not for the weak of heart or the thin of wallet. They therefore have to strike a balance between sanity and safety; which of itself is not an easy task. Specialists are therefore employed to ‘make this happen’ in order that an extra Jaguar for Memsaab be squeezed into the equation. As a past owner-operator, they are more than welcome to it. Within those ranks reign the same monsters of jealousy and fear of not performing to standard, which then forces the almost entire decision making process down to the flight line – where blame can be easily discharged to you and me – and the hangar floor where even more monsters lurk amongst our wrenched brethren. Trying to change the pattern of blame assignment, despite wonderful intentions, is labor intensive and almost always without positive response. That leads to the throwing of hats and stomping on carpets which invariably ends in frustration, and can then lead to colored decisions. It is a sad truth which remains despite the efforts of most of us.

Simply put, one either accepts what one believes to be the status quo and deal with the continuing anxieties associated with that comfort zone, or begins a steadfast search for new territory where these problems are considerably less and just reward is actually probable. However, prior to this activity, there is a need for genuine personal and professional accounting in order to seek not only our true north, but how we intend to get there. I know this activity will cause surprises and uncover disturbing truths. If one then want to continue dealing with uncomfortable decisions – go for it; if not, a change is needed. That was dictated by my situation years ago when I decided not to continue working for companies bereft of any form of conscience. My butt, my license, my decision; griping might produce an answer, but will seldom produce the long term answer.

Today I work with a Company that is Safety Adamant, guided by the wisdom of a Chief Pilot who will not accept nonsense from Customer, Passenger and Pilot alike – and we have backing all the way to the dizzying heights of the P+CEO – actually stated and published as such. We are still a group of individuals seeking Nirvana, but – at a much higher level. The ‘No word’ is very seldom an issue here. Not perfect, but pretty damn close. Not a bad result of a few days of personal accounting, the determination and action to step out of what was then my comfort zone. Make it happen for yourself.

Wherefore art thow, Oh great ‘No Factor?’
Last time I checked, it was back in Africa somewhere.
Where is my comfort zone? I am very comfortable, thank you.

CMW.

your ops manual should cover it, if not ask the chief pilot to make an amendment that does cover it.

It is a hazard, and should be covered and in a manner that the onus of proof of the pilots judgement is not on him. (especially when dealing with drunks)

quoting the rule book, clearly and in well mannerd fashion is easy, trying to make up stories is ridiculous.

Fly with "Prudence" ??
 

I first met “Prudence” in the crew room of 651 Squadron AAC in Verden just before Christmas 1969.

She was dressed in black stockings, suspender belt, six inch stilettos and very little else and was attached to the wall with a few dobs of “blue tack”.

As a flight safety poster she conveyed a simple message

“Fly with Prudence” ;)

Cost of "No"
 

If you end up in a situation where you need to bring your passengers attention to the fact that what they want you to do isn't safe, ask them to ring their insurance company and have your wife/partner/boyfriend/casual root/mother/father/bloke next door the beneficiery of their life policy.
You want to make it worth your while to die for someone you're not sleeping with!:E
I'd rather be alive looking for a job than dead and not needing one. I've worked long and bloody hard to get to where I am now (one rung off the bottom of the ladder). And NO ONE can afford to pay me emough to take unacceptable risk.
And yes, I have said "no" on a number of accasions, both on EMS and corporate tasks

Sadly, Prudence had gone by the time I got there! There was just the Maid.

phil

that's worse!

Much more difficult if there is no ops manual and if there was a chief pilot it would be yourself (as well as the junior pilot and everyone in between) ..... :hmm:

Blue tack? In 1969?

Picky !!
 

... or "Back rolled Sellotape"
How's SA - my wife arrived in JHB this morning to visit a sick son.