EC135 Type rating
 

Morning Gents,
I have read through the 'you want to be helicopter pilot' thread and its really good, packed with advice etc.
But what I want to know is do you have to start on pistol helicopters?
Next year Im looking at doing my rotary PPL and I have the money to spend so I'd rather if it was possible do my entire course right up to Commercial in a turbine helicopter ie the 135.
I realise this might not be practicle or possible but I really will do all I can do avoid going down the piston route, to be honest I don't feel safe in a R22/44. No offence to anyone intended just my feelings on it.
So... Do I 'have' to start on Piston heli's or is there somewhere I can go to do a turbine coarse??
Thanks guys, and sorry for bothering you
Gareth

gareth
its all down to costs, in the r22 or other piston the costs are lower but if you wanted to learn on a turbine there would be no problem however on a 135 as its a twin there may be problems depends where in the world you train

i would expect that the costs to train in a 135 would be in the region of 12 times the cost of a r22 and if you could afford to pay that much money you may find that being a commercial pilot would not bring enough cash rewards

best of luck with your training you will now get everyone elses views on this and we dont all agree all the time but we may on this ?

steve

You can certainly learn on a turbine helicopter if you want to. Quite a few schools have JetRangers, and it's not at all unusual to learn on those.

The trouble with learning on the EC135 is that it's a very complicated machine. It's twin-engined, and also has a glass cockpit...and I'm pretty sure this is standard. This means that there is a huge amount of information to absorb, apart from actually learning to fly it.

Your best bet might be to learn on the single-engine EC120, which is fairly similar, but a lot simpler. You ought to be able to find one or two of those around, though you might have to travel a bit to learn. Conversion from that to the EC135 ought to be relatively easy.

I'm not an expert on either of these machines, though I've flown them both to write flight test articles for Today's Pilot magazine. But you may well get a more detailed answer from someone with more experience on these helicopters.

Finally, some of us on here aren't "gents" - we belong to the other half of the human race. ;)

Not sure what the going rate for a 135 is on private training, but with instructor, fees and fuel, it must be edging towards a grand an hour. There are a hell of a lot of good types available beftween your extremes of R22 and EC135. Buy Pilot magazine, look in the back and start ringing around. As money seems to be no problem, a phone bill won't affect you much. Lots of turbine helicopters available at much better rates and easier to fly as well!! Anything from Jet Ranger to EC120 will be fun. I am sure you will get a few schools on this thread advertising their 'wares' through an intermediary (just like labour party funding). A turbine student stating publicly that money is no problem could pay a lot of their bills this winter!

MakD,

It is hard enough as a rated EC135 pilot to get a machine to do training on, so unless you known an owner who will let you use their machine (a couple in the NW) for the entire course I think you will struggle to get hold of one. Insurance may as add to the cost. You will also need a FTO with EC135 on its books and an available FI. About as available as an EC135 to train on. If you want twin training the AS355 would be a better option as there are lots around and FTOs will have them on their books and FIs available.

My advice would be to train on the Jetranger which is cheaper and simpler. It will also teach you to be a more considerate pilot due to its limitations.

I used to teach basic students on the AS350 and it was simply too powerful and stable for them to develop an understanding of limited power and flying smoothly to conserve power.

Good luck with your training.

FNW

As far as i know, its mandatory to train on a helicopter, which is capable to do touchdown autorotations. For this reason in Germany the federal police and the armed forces are not using the EC 135 as initial training helicopter. As mentioned by other collegues, the 135 is also too complex for basic training. If money is not the limiting factor, a light turbine like the 120, B 206 etc. would be fine.

skadi

Info for whirlybird:
the glasscockpit in the 135 is not standard, its an option.

300CBi
 

While it is not mandatory to learn to fly on a piston engined machine, it is effectively mandatory for many - cost being the limiting factor.

Anyone with the funds available to train all the way to CPL in an EC135 would be looking at a different machine for ab initio training and then an IR after the CPL.

Before you completely rule out piston-engined training perhaps you could consider the Schweizer 300CBi. This machine is very stable, capable of full down autos and (relatively speaking) widely accessible. It is one of the more popular training machines worldwide and a damn sight cheaper to run than EC135!

Good luck and enjoy your training.

I look after 2 EC135s and have plenty of time in the 120. I don't know about anyone else, but our insurers would have a fit if we offered ab-initio training in the 135 and I think the chaps at the Belgrano may have a few words about it as well.

Wet rate on the 135 £ 1350 + VAT per hour, rather a lot of cash up to CPL level, let alone PPL.

The 120 is lovely, but I don't know of anyone operating one on a TRTO. If you want to go the turbine route from the start then go 206, just make sure there is an intensive care bed availlable for your bank manager when you tell him the cost!

FF

training in the gazelle would be a option fun as well

Frankly, you would be mad to do ab-initio on something as complicated as an EC135. Forget this idea. If you want to do it in the UK, and I suspect in all JAALand too it will not even be possible.
1. You won't be able to find an aircraft cos no one will want to hire one to you for that purpose. The reasons why have largely been covered by others.
2. It is not a good idea for you anyway. You are better learning the basics on a basic machine. You won't be able to do a number of essential air exercises on an EC135. It is also MUCH more complicated than a normal machine used for training. For basic training the complexity will also just get in the way of the things you need to learn.
3. I am not even sure if it would be legal. I am not going to bother to check but there is (if my memory is correct) some sort of ban on training on twins without 70 hrs P1 or total time or whatever (under JAR).
4. It will be incredibly expensive. Your financial wedge would be much better spent on making sure you had a good instructor and paying him/her a bit over the odds.
The process of getting to be a useful CPL (or a safe PPL(H)) requires the acquisition of experience beyond the basic licence. Do your licence on something simple. Then get some structured training on say a single turbine. Do some specialist courses like mountain flying, load lifting. Go to far flung corners of the globe and fly there.
You can learn on something like a JetRanger, an EC120 or other straightforward single turbine. I have done PPLs on a JetRanger, but I really would not recommend it. Better to do your initial on say a Schweizer 300 and then follow it up with a GOOD SE turbine conversion.
Helinut

P.S. I missed one other thing - you will miss a whole load of fun and knowledge that you would gain by gathering experience in a wide variety of types of heles

PPS If you are that rich, I will give up my EC135 job and take you through from start to finish :)

LASORS 07
applicant for the issue of a first type rating for a
multi-engine helicopter shall:
a. hold a certificate of satisfactory completion of a
pre-entry approved course in accordance with
Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 2.255 to be conducted by
a FTO or TRTO or have passed at least the
CPL(H) theoretical knowledge examinations in
accordance with JAR-FCL 2.470; and
b. have completed at least 70 hours as
pilot-in-command of helicopters in accordance with
Appendices 1 and 3 to JAR-FCL 2.240.

a) only one company in the UK has an approved course (or so i'm told)
b) need to get 70 hrs P1 first .PPL(h) + probably 60 hours solo.

If you do go the Jetranger EC120 route PLEASE check the school has permission to train on "helicopters with more than 4 seats and Turbine engines

Thanks guys/and girl ;)

Totally blown away by the response, honestly thank you very much for taking the time to point me in the right direction.

After some thought I'm going to go down the EC120 route, so I ll start looking for somewhere local to well...Scotland to do it. Not heard of any schools in Scotland that have EC120 trainers.

I'm looking at getting started around April/May I might even set up a little website tracking my progress etc, so I ll let you guys/and girl know how things go.

My ambition is to get through the CPL course and get a job flying EC135s somewhere, but I don't know what the demand is for pilots but this country being as full of opportunities as we all know it for, there are probably no demand for 135 pilots and more than likely a waiting list to even get seen for a interview..... No justice anywhere.

Helinut.
Unfortunately I'm not that rich yet .... However I'm working on it ;) Expect a phone call though, this time next year I'm looking at spending about 10k a month on training and if I've got pleanty to go around I'll defo take you up on your offer ;)

Take care

Im hopeing to get started round may aswel, me and a friend are going out to land down under to do the PPL on the S300 hopefully then transition onto the CPL if all goes well.. My ambition is to get flying a super puma but im not too keen on overshore flying so might never get near one, beautiful machine thou and so is the 135!

Regarding the website thats a good idea actually, you should do that, might even do that meself when i get started!

All the very best with the training:ok:

HJS helicopters in Peterculter near Aberdeen do PPL(H)'s, CPL(H)'s and have an EC120. That's the only one north of the border.
As for EC135 jobs, all corporate one's in mainland UK are gone but there's a hell of a lot of 135's in Germany and Austria doing many different things.
Best of luck.:ok:
H

I believe the Helicentre in Liverpool operate an EC120, maybe a little bit south for you though

Why not try the USA for your initial training and hours building, ISTR that a few FW schools out there operate to CAA regs, maybe a RW setup somewhere?

It is good to see young aspirations of new pilots with aims looking allready to flying the twins. The offshore market will be pleased.

Helimut, nice reply.

10 years ago insurance did allow twin abinitio training, today is a different story. If i recall the people who did this training had a ppl fixed wing, then whent straight to ME Helicopter.

Cheers
TH:D

Especially considering the €-£-$ exchange rate. Now IS the time to go WEST!!! HAI are still one of the best! (So I'm told):)

I have some concerns about you . You are old enough arent you ? It just sounds like you are a 10 year old with a stupid idea :D There is no point whatever in training in a turbine , it will just make you a worse pilot. I suggest some research before you waste your money .

ps i will train you in my Agusta 109 if you like for £1,000 per hour .....:ok:

MakD - check your PMs

Biz