Any way we can learn something from an accident is a good thing.
Speculation that promotes a discussion and the sharing of knowledge is a good thing.
I fly an Astar, thousands of hours in the airframe, and I'm a VietNam vet- the accident pilot and I have too much in common for me to take this one lightly.
Post the photos, but no gore.
Anybody heard the rumor of a video showing a sudden roll and pitchdown to impact?

ok, here they are.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...ashhawaii2.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...ashhawaii1.jpg

WOW, thats some photo and it explains a lot regarding the fatalities.

"It's just that had EMTs/Fire been there they would've spent ages stabilising the passengers before moving them"
OK MSP, makes more sense. Unfortunately based on the "Urgency of the Emergency" some people do end up with further injuries during an extraction. Its either that or die in some cases.
The photo above leads me to think that those in front received some severe injuries and if alive they may fall into that category. Im not a doctor nor an EMT . From experience I do know that most EMTs have certain procedures or protocols they are trained to provide which in many cases does require time. One would have to weigh the difference in time to "if they didnt do it" would they make it to the hospital.

No doubt the buzzards are climbing the fence with mountains of Law Books. Just about everyone within a mile of that place will be in court eventually.

Wow, From the other photos the machine didnt look to bad. But those photos bring new light to the accident.
Allthough its interesting to see them, also sad also to see the impact damage.
Thanks for posting them.
Condolences to the pilots and all familys.

Hughesy

Wow indeed. Very sad.
Is that blade strike damage to the cockpit?
Are there methods to prevent blade strike if a crash is unavoidable?

Assuming the pilot has some control left, this pilot may not have had much control.

The hydraulics on and AStar are run by a rubber band, which breaks every now and then. It's a known weak point. There have been several fatal accidents caused by hydraulic failure in this model. Back when I flew the D model, in the 80s, we used to do practice hydraulics off approaches to a hover, and then landing. It can be done if you pay attention and do everything slowly. Whether the newer models fly the same I can't say, but given the number of hydraulics failures that still occur, practicing hydraulics off maneuvers would seem to be prudent.

Gomer Im sure your right but as I understand it from this another one from the same barn, both were hydraulic failures with extremely good and experienced pilots. Towards the landing phase both for some reason tucked nose first. The other was injuries only and landed flat so hard the starflex was shattered along with the skids. but landed upright thus survivabilty was not as much of a factor as this one. There are other stories out there which lead ME to believe that proficiency may be good during hydraulics off, but every so often theres a Hiccup with sad results.

Is an "A-star" an early Squirrel? If so, are the mechanics the same on the B3? I am unfamiliar with both types being just a relatively inexperienced piston guy at present. Also, with regard to hyd. failure practise is it always safer to plan a 'run on landing' after hydraulic failure rather than come to a hover in all types?

outofwhack,
 

As it says in As350 FM (40 to 60 kt with every model) it is saver and following the right procedures. It is also important to cut off the whole HYD system from the HYD cut off pushputton located in collective pitch.

Hostile.

Outofwhack, the AS350D Astar was an early model, with a Lycoming LTS101 engine which had a tendency to come apart every now and then. AFAIK the hydraulics are the same in all models, but there are other differences which might make some of the handling characteristics different. It is certainly safer to make a running landing with hydraulics failure, but sometimes you may be operating where that won't be an option, if there isn't enough fuel to reach an airport or even the beach, so you may be forced to land offshore, where a running landing isn't possible. There aren't that many AS350s still operating in the GOM, certainly no D models that I'm aware of. I know of at least one fatal accident following a hydraulics failure offshore, where the aircraft hit the side of the platform while apparently attempting a landing. That rubber band certainly needs a redesign.

The crash aircraft appears to be an AS350BA or B1. The difference between these models and a B3 is engine power, and some strategic structural reinforcement. This aircraft model's hydraulics-off performance becomes more difficult as weight increases in an aircraft, and especially as each model's lift power increased, thus the load compensating hydraulic assembly in the TR mechanism of the B2 and later.
The original AS350 had symmetrical airfoil blades, the "blue" blades. The "gray" blades visible in the photo are asymmetric airfoil, a further issue with the hydraulics. I've never had a jackstall with blue blades.

The AStar is a great machine but over the years there have been numerous Hyd failures and jackstalls which put those onboard in grave danger.
I saw the chilling video of the ENG Astar that appeared to have a major loss of control and ended up crashing into a building.
As an up and coming Pilot/Engineer it makes me a little bit nervous to know that loss of hyds could be the end. How many other light/medium helis are completely uncontrollable at low speeds/hovering when this sort of thing occurs? :sad:

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/508e2639afc62463862572a300484def/$FILE/2007-06-15.pdf
:rolleyes:

the bo105 is not controllable without hydraulics which is why it has full duplex system. Is the 500 ?.

Widgeon

The 500 is able to retain full control authority without hydraulics.

Why?












It doesn't have any!;)

Mmmm....

Well it does actually ...... there is a "unilock" device which is really just a Hydraulic damper in the cyclic fore & aft control run!

Cheers :E

do the 355's have the same design issue?

355's have dual hydraulic systems powered through a gear driven pump(s).

latest news is here

Move injured passengers?
 

This sad accident prompts the question, what would you do if 1st on scene and passengers are still strapped in and unable to help themselves?

What percentage of aircraft accidents that are survivable, involve fuel spillage that does not ignite?


Smell no fuel + see no fuel = leave victims be?


Mickjoebill