I would suggest that both are needed as they have different strengths and weaknesses.

Thread closed until Cyclic fixes his email address as notifications of replies are bouncing to me.


------------------
Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork

Training and Currency requirements for EMS/SAR ops
 

I am seeking comment about training and currency requirements for pilots in the single pilot IFR EMS/SAR role?

What check and training should they undergo during the course of the year and the frequency of such if it is more than than their IFR renewal once per year?

What specific operations should to targeted most, how often and in what format?

How important is simulator training, does it need to be helicopter specific and type specefic or can a generic sim be beneficial?

Do crewpersons need to be trained in IFR role to assist a single pilot in IFR operation or does single pilot mean the pilot does everything with no imput form the front seat occupant?

Is CRM training essential? :)

Nichosh, interesting questions. Have you just broken into the SAR/EMS market? :D :D

1S1,
No I have been involved for several years and just interested in finding out what others are doing in this area and why?

The first thing your operation should do is go to a 2 pilot crew for night and IFR.
Night/IFR , Single pilot SAR/EMS should not be attempted. At 04:00 your body's natural bio rythmes are saying sleepppp. Its like flying after you've had 2 or 3 beer.You need that extra body there to help keep you alive.

Just check out the postings on " sleep " and "capricorn rescue" .

Is CRM training essential?

Nichosh.

Are you sure that you have been doing this SAR/EMS work for several years?? Surely your Aviation authority will have currency requirements for single pilot IFR ops on their web-site. If you do indeed have a ATPL, these questions do seem strange.

Good luck if this is a genuine inquiry.

NRDK,
Yes it is a serious point of discussion.

With 1000's of EMS operations around the world it is hard to believe that every one would agree with each other and does the same level of training and currency.
The environment they operate in, commercial restraints between government and privately funded EMS providers would in itself suggest there may be great variables.
You then have the operations that have more toys to be current with to those who have less.

CASA does have IFR recency requirements laid down in our CAO's but they are a legal minimum for all operators to meet. One would suggest over water at night descending below lowest safe and doing night winch operations would present more of challenge then doing a GPS arrival to a airfield!!!

In some parts of Europe EMS operations are restricted to day only. Those operations preceive the risk is too great. Others will do hospital to hospital only and no scene response.

In the USA I know of operations that maintain IFR currency for VFR operations only.

We have all read about the SAR single engine, single pilot VFR helicopter that recently ended up in the sea at night 100 miles off the coast. That was an accident with many, many factors attached and from the comments to date a book could be written about it.

The helicopter that then rescued them was a multi engine IFR, 4 axis autopilot with two pilots. I know which operation I would prefer to be working for. The fact these things happen and no doubt will continue to in the future suggests attitudes of the companies and the pilots are not always possibly right.

EMS had a period during the rapid growth of the industry in the USA of having a very high accident rate. No doubt things have improved now, the majority of those accidents where not as a result of mechanical failures of the helicopter but that of the pilots flying them. One could draw from that their training and currency may also have been lacking if not just the belief that it all rested on their shoulders to do the mission and save a life at the expense of their own!!

Your views are still sought and for the record 19years in the industry and yes an ATPL even if it is an Aussie one!!

Best wishes and enjoy the summer while it lasts, it is winter here and still great at the beach.

Point taken. The different growth rates of SAR/EMS around the world, has left an often less than ideal number of operations. With many brave aircrew placing themselves and their machines at the limit. Often for what turns out to be a waste of a valuable asset. But that's the nature of the beast.

Thanks for your expanded explanation. Safe flying.

SAR and EMS operations must have one of the lowest flying hour rates in the industry, yet the actual flying tasks are arguably the most demanding.

Any operator who cannot afford to provide REGULAR training (CRM, IFR, aircraft emergencies, winching operations, night out-landing approaches etc.) for their crews should not be operating in this business.

IHL,
I don't think you can say that "single pilot night/IFR op's shouldn't be attempted" ... They are carried out safely and sucsessfully in many places that have suitably experienced / trained & equipped crews.
Nichosh,
We have a check & training program that has us doing one check or another at least every three months. Also type specific sim' training is invaluable. With larger expensive A/C many organisations severely limit the emergency procedures you can practice in the air. Training should target the most dificult op's that your'e likely to encounter.ie: Night op's to "the black hole"
Our crewies are trained and are great help in the front. Hope this helps.
Stay safe.
Scattercat

Scatercat . I'm a 10,000 hour pilot and I have done hoist rescue operations ,off-shore and at night. On a "BLACK NIGHT" I would not feel comfortable operating in that environment single pilot.

In Canada regulations would not alow it !

P.S. Black Air has less lift.

Agree with you 100% there IHL. The days of single engine VFR EMS/SAR are numbered and so are single pilot IFR EMS/SAR ops. Unfortunately a degree of 'macho' culture still exists here Downunder and we are slow to catch on to what is happening elsewhere. Hence the accident rate and the even higher 'near miss' rate.

[ 04 August 2001: Message edited by: Out of Balance ]

Thanks for your comments. I agree there is nothing wrong with singles doing certain EMS and SAR missions but there are probably limits set to what is fair and reasonable taskings. Lets face it they where doing them for years before the twins took over the market and we are seeing a re appearance of the singles again to in regional areas and stand in aircraft while the twins are in for service.

They are less likely to fail than the pilots flying them some would say.
But for those who get accustomed to twins it is always a bit lonely with only one engine in places you would not choose to go if you had a choice.

The 90 day checks seems to becoming more of an accepted standard in EMS/SAR which is 4 times more than what is called for in Australian CAO's which calls for check flight once per year.

Could anyone expand on what is being conducting on these flights or should be conducted?
Are they being done as a training sortie or a check flight?
Are they with a check and training pilot or with another captain as a two pilot ride for building familarity.
Should EMS/SAR look for legislation different to the basic IFR requirements laid down or is this just becoming too regulated? :eek:

IHL,
I never said offshore / night winching op's were a "single pilot" operation. Our SOP's don't allow it either. What I did say is that single pilot SAR/EMS op's can and are carried out safely provided all the requirments are met. And yes there are times when it is appropriate to take two crew.
Out of Balance, I don't know any single pilot M/E IFR SAR/EMS pilots who do what they do because of a so-called "Macho" attitude. How many accidents have occured "downunder" in these types of operations that are attributable to having one pilot? (I can't recall any off the top of my head)
:p

Scat,

I did not say that SAR/EMS pilots in Australia do what they do because of a macho attitude. The 'macho' attitude that I refer to prevails within the helicopter industry in general, although I do know some SPIFR SAR/EMS pilots who believe that they can do everything themselves and largely ignore their crew.

If you want an example of that attitude in the EMS/SAR industry look no further than Rockhampton.

You and I both fly SPIFR EMS/SAR because that is the way we are told to operate by our employer and it is sanctioned by CASA. If I were to say that I didn't want to fly that way any more because I think it unsafe I would be invited to look elsewhere for employment.

The Bell 412 is certified as a SPIFR helicopter and probably operates very well as such in the charter/offshore market flying from A to B (although I think you will find that most offshore operators fly two pilot - because it is safer).

Flying it in bad weather at night to a remote, unlit and unfamiliar area and attempting to land on a road or hover in a confined area to carry out a winch is a different matter.

Of course, it is up to the individual pilot's judgement, however it is allowed in our Company Operations Manual and is recognised as part of our job description.

The military would only consider this type of flying with lots of planning, two pilots, NVG's and a daylight recconaissance. We are expected to do it with a quick response time, single pilot with only a Nitesun, after being woken at 2am. I personally believe that our type of operation would be safer operating with two pilots.

There have been accidents in the SPIFR SAR/EMS industry here that may not have occured with a second pilot. There are also many more close calls that largely go unreported. I for one have had a few and if you are saying that you haven't, then you are either telling fibs or have not been flying SPIFR SAR/EMS for very long.

;)

[ 05 August 2001: Message edited by: Out of Balance ]

OoB,
Point taken ... yes two heads are better than one up front. (To be pedantic .. does making it safer mean that it is currently "un-safe"?) And yes I've had the hair stand up on the back of my neck a few times. (Off to bed now after a 2am one this morning .. yawn :o
Stay safe
Scat :o

What cost SAR rearcrew?
 

Is there a market for experienced rearcrew or are you (the civilian market) training your own nowadays?

I'll get my coat..........................

cheap :

I suspect you're asking in the wrong place. Check Mil Pilots - I suspect you might get some contacts there with more knowledge, since rear crew are a rare thing in the non-oil commercial world.

If you are SAR, then the only companies really are Bristow or CHC-Ireland in the British Isles. Neither pay as well as the military but I believe both are trying to get their salaries increased.

As Bristow has the Offshore SAR trial ("Jigsaw")contract, it may be worth fnding out from them if there are any jobs going. If the trial turns in to a full blown contract, then there will be a need for a number of SAR aircrewmen, especially those with past experience, be it from the military or other civil operators.

Try their personnel departments at either Redhill or Aberdeen.

Thanks. Pay's not the problem now, it's more wether you get the chance to train or the recognition required.

SAR schedule?
 

Hello,maybe someone could tell me how a normal civil SAR schedule would look like? One week on and two weeks off? What work time limitations are there for SAR (were you work)? The SAR FDTL are not written in the JAR OPS 3 (yet) I think..... .Thanks

ODEN

Can't say for UK or US but in Australia the schedule varies accross the board.

We have 24 hours on with 48 hours off. Other places have two 10 hour day shifts followed by two 14 hour night shifts then four days off.

All the time still having to comply with regulatory flight & duty time limitations.

6 weeks annual leave, 10 days sick leave per year -- yadda, yadda, yadda!!

Hope it helps.

PS: Best type of fling there is. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

Thanks Jerry, anyone else work longer periods and have longer periods off?

Normal European routine is 24 Hr On/ 24 Off/24 On/24 Off/24 On and then 96 Hours Off. Leave entitlement varies from company to company, but it is the best flying there is, except at 2am trying to hover over a trawler in 6 to 10 metre seas!!

ODEN

Yes, there are more allotted days off but it depends on how many pilots are on the roster. If you have four full-time pilots, then the 10/14 hour roster gives four days off.

We have three full time pilots. It is all relative. The time off is directly proportional to the time worked but there are so many variables to the rostering it's not funny.

Cheers

It depends, some bases we have 4 pilots then you are working half time at your preference, 7on/7off most times, if not we have 3 pilots and then you work 20 days on 10 days off, 24 hours a day, being out of base with response time of half an hour from noon to next mornig 10 am.. .I thnk it must be the worst ratio duty/free time in the world, what do you think?

matador, in Canada our SAR schedule is close to the same. 9.5 days off per month, the rest is a 24 hour shift every two days, and 72 hour shifts over the weekends. We're doing that with 6 pilots (two pilot aircraft) right now, so it works out to about the same as you have except our schedule is irregular.

Normally we do this with 12 pilots but then we have many other taskings and duties.

Technique and experience for mountain rescue
 

Hi guys,

i would appreciate any comments to some questions about the techniques and experiences on mountain rescue ops.
We are using BO 105 and BK 117 helicopters for transporting rescuers by hoist or fixed line. The insertion and extraction of rescuers and patient in mountains, some times it's a tricky operation. On "short haul" the rescuers are fixed to the end of a long line hooked to a double reduntant attachment. Hoist ops should be known. Maybe it would be interesting to discuss the several methods, line lenghts, rescue equipment (rescue bag), crew, practice, mirrors, emergency procedures... .
We use tyromont rescue bags, one pilot at the controls using mirrors to hold the position, for hoist ops a winch operator and a two man rescue team. Line lenghts up to 150 ft. The rescuers are equipped with a personally seat harness, helmets with radios und some alpine stuff for rescue and self protection. I think the hoist ops is the better variant, but needs an additionally crew member and hoists are expensive. Fixed line is cheaper but needs more crew experience.

Mountain rescue technique is not really something I can pass through this forum, but I'll add a few thoughts.

It is dangerous, challenging, diverse, and rewarding. I believe the ideal pilot for this will have plenty experience in Heli-ski, longlining, IFR ops and on-scene EMS. The machine needs a HOGE above the expected rescue altitude, with capacity for the victim(s) and fuel to make the hospital. Also, the helicopter should be able to handle strong wind from any quadrant.

We use a 255' hoist. Ideally we hoist between 35 and 50 feet, but sometimes trees and terrain dictate a higher hoist. If the trees are more than 255', we hoist our rescuers down 255' then they rappel off the hook to the ground. The hoist operator tells us where the site is with reference to the helicopter using arbitrary units that are based on rate of motion towards the spot (ie: "forward and left for 10.....5...4..3.2.1..steady forward and left"). Works really well.

In my opinion, long lining is not an option for any rescue service. The patient is exposed to the environment beneath the helicopter far too long. Hypothermia, shock, fear, treatment delays are just some of the patient concerns. Danger for those on the line and for those in the helicopter is increased (not as likely to pickle a live load). Since the load must be relocated by moving the helicopter, a guide line is not possible thereby increasing danger of swing, spin, instability, etc.

Our mirrors were removed due to cost...some weren't taking care of them properly. Very bad decision, methinks.

As far as training, number one knowing machine and limitations, number two is mountain flying training (recommend Canadian Helicopters...v good course), then knowing area of responsibility and practicing the sequence regularly to make sure you know it instinctively.

There's so much more to talk about. Hope that's what you were looking for.

I would agree with that.

Someone assist me, as I remember some of my H-3 Bretheren aircrewmen telling me they have a stick by the door for the hoist operator in which he can give limited cyclic commands over what the pilot holds to position the bird for hoisting, easing that situation itself somewhat.

Nick? Lu ?

The stick by the door isn't uncommon in larger helicopters with some sort of auto hover capability. The problem in a rescue situation is when it's used, you have one man in the back moving the helicopter with one hand, operating the hoist with another, holding the cable with his third hand and securing himself with his fourth. Meanwhile you have two pilots in the cockpit discussing where to have supper.

It works so much better if the pilots fly and the hoist operator hoists.

There are situations where the stick is useful, but not in mountain rescue in general. Overwater rescues with little spatial reference for the pilots is one great area for the hover trim stick.

You mentioned attaching a rappelling rope to the hoist hook, without trying to offend, I would suggest this is a habit you should re consider. The company I work for in Oz used to do this, as did several others, until we attended a Breeze Hoist Users conference in the US several years ago. Breeze informed us that this habit can cause shock loading of the cable, and as a result the strength of the hoist cable is compromised. I recal there was an incident a number of years ago in Isreal where some one was killed after the cable broke. We ceased this habit as a result. Without telling you how to do your job, I would suggest a call to Breeze asking for Mike Mitchell might be advised.

Safe hoisting!

Driptray,

Fully agree, you'll find that Breeze have issued an alert bulletin, (I've got a copy at work) highlighting NOT to rappel off a hoist cable.

Heedm,

I recall the back seat stick (10% authority?) would only operate when auto hover engaged, usually using Doppler reference. OGE hovers in the high country wouldn't allow auto hover, hence a dead issue, surely? Although I quite agree that the back seat should winch, & the drivers drive...

Tecpilot, I'd be interested in any contact details for the equipment that you use for fixed line ops. We operate in the snow with a BK117, and sometimes get called for SAR, but pick ups are often a problem. Most times we finish up dropping off a ground crew who walk in, then spend another couple of hours walking out with the survivor, unless we can hover close enough to pick up the team. Could be a time saving option that we haven't considered if you have details. TIA.

I certainly agree that the remote hover trim is difficult for the winch op to handle, they already have a high workload. The RHT device on the S-76 is not the easiest to use.

On the SAR unit I used to fly for, we sometimes let the winch operators practice RHT wet drums at their request for training. Usually, once they had done enough (or when we got short of fuel ;) !) we used to take back control to pick up the drum using their patter! We learned a lot of new swear words during this training..... enough said!:D

Driptray and John Eacott,

Thanks for the heads up. I will investigate this. It is a capability we have but don't use too often. In fact we train for it much more often than actually use it.

Our hoist is rated for a 600lb load in high speed and a 1800lb load in slow (cargo) mode. Cable peel out should happen at 1800lb. Anyone know if these are similiar numbers to the hoist that issued the bulletin?

Also, if anyone can provide any details on that Israeli incident, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

Very interesting discussion guys, and a topic we've not had in any detail before.
If you've got any good stories, please feel free to post them.

Heliport
Moderator

As said in my opinion hoist operations are more variabel and easier compared to fixed line.
But the advantages of fixed line are the following: the whole fixed line stuff is easy to transport in a single small bag and the normal 3 man crew (of course well trained) is any time ready to activate the system. That means for example from a car crash site if necessary direct to mountain or rooftop rescue. The system is much cheaper than a hoist. Costs depends on the number of rescue missions. Heedm is part time right. Transfer time should be not to long. But that's a question of the operation area, conditions and patient. Have made an extraction of a patient localized by a ground unit 4 weeks ago on a freezing day. After the 20 minutes we needed, the online rescuer and an observer standing on the BK's skid, checked themselves for frost bites. We have no negative experiences with spinning (line lenght). "Load" swinging is first hand a question of crew skills. But depends on the wind and line lenght. Have said "crew" because CRM is really decisive, especially communications. A single rescuer on the line isn't so good. On the transfer he will be turned backside forward and couldn`t see the insertion site and obstacles. Unfortunately sometimes there is no other way. With two or three rescuers it's much better. Best variant i think, is the patient in the rescue bag between two rescuers. An electrically heated and pilot controlled mirror is absolutely recommended! Please dont`try such missions on the end of the helicopters performance. A good amount of available engine power makes all guys feels better. To John Eacott i will try to collect some pictures and words in the next days and email you.

I have never used a fixed line but every time I see it performed on the news the hairs on the back of my neck rise as I envisage the dilema that the pilot would face should an engine fail and he has to jettison the line to complete his flyaway. I have always used a hoist and believe that there is no other safe way. The safety of the winchman is paramount and we took care to ensure that the winchman was always at a safe height should the cable break or have to be cut due to an engine failure. During mountain ops we would always brief an escape route and responsibilty for cable cutting should an engine fail. It is safer to have the winch op cut the cable at a suitable time as the pilot concentrates on flying the escape route.
The Aux hover trim in the Seaking was only used over water and came into its own on still nights when trying to winch to a small target. It had 10% authority but could be given full authority if certain ccbs were pulled!! If this was done quietly it could really surprise the winch op as he accelerated thru' 60kts!!

Safe Flying
HF :)