The video was shown by TV and i couldn't see a reason why PP (professional pilots) shouldn't see the danger in some helicopterjobs. I have to train involved personal. And sometimes i think a lot of operators and personal don't wanna see the risks. Risk is part of the job but any personal should be best trained, mental prepared and equipped. A point that some operators, managers but also pilots don't wanna see. The helicopterworld is full of shorthaulers without hook redundancy, radiolink or with "costeffective" trained personal and equipment. The "Human Cargo" needs additionally to the normal cargolifts a special preparation.

Sorry but sometimes it's better to provocate... a discussion.

If non rescue involved PPRUNERS are shocked, sorry! but the helicopterworld isn't only the wannabees, flight training and executive area.

The thread is named " What a decision" thats including the decision to start such a thread.

Tecpilot - do you have the full version of the video - the one I saw a while ago included footage of the helicopter hovering before the cable was cut. I have been looking for this clip ever since as it brings out good points about winching safety for SAR crews. As for the crew on this clip I think they should have had a better flyaway option briefed and used their escape route rather than cutting the cable.

Video
 

I have been watching the clip, and admittedly it causes some resistance, but I think it is vital to let people know of the dangers involved while winching. This mishap/accident is a human factors problem, and might have lacked the pre-flight briefing, in-flight communications, etc... To quote Jerry Lederer: "Learn from the mistakes of others; you'll never live long enough to make them all yourself".

As for one of the other posts expressing almost outrage and shock; we all readily accept people being crunched in car wreck, train wreck, suicidal folks on a railroad crossing, and the like. And all that stuff is presented in the morning tabloids to sweeten our coffees. Unfortunately, we have to learn from the mistakes of others to implement or devise safety policies. This clip might serve as a stern warning on the dangers HEMS crews are exposed to. :( :suspect:

Kissmy - I believe they both survived albeit fairly broken, which is amazing when you look at the video.

Sorry again folks for the gruesome video. It was my target to provocate.
But what is so shocking? The pictures? The direct and visual confrontation with an accident initiated by a bad prepared crew? The small frontier between live and death in the business? A wrong splitsecond decision? This nightmares happens, happens direct in front of us.
I assume we have round about 6000-8000 hoist or shorthaul rescues in Europe. We have any year 5-10 accidents or heavy incidents with Lady Luck in Europe only in this small part of the helicopterworld.
Samples: Single pilot lift off in a short haul AS 350 in Switzerland- chrashing into death, Class "D" release Sea King in UK, rescuer falls from longline in Austria, on a cable car evacuation a UH-1 in Germany cutted the hoist cable with rescuer online.
One of the problems is: any country still holds his own rules and any operator his own SOPs (if available!).

I know operators in Europe they have never heard anything about "escape routes". Preflight briefing for the special operation unknown. There are countries in Europe with no need to certify "Human Cargo" ops. The HHO (only hoist) section JAR-OPS 3 Amd 2 is not in law in some european countries. There are no certification rules for human cargo in the most countries.
JAA some years ago: The JAR-OPS 4 will solve the human cargo problem! JAR-OPS 4, i believe we will never seen a JAR-OPS 4 in Europe! JAA -> negative report!
And we have military and paramilitary units with procedures and equipment 30 years old. We have young police pilots with a minimum of sling load experience ( it's not part of their normal business) but performing short hauls.

I think that all pilots and crewman of rescue helicopters should view this video from time to time to remove any sense of lingering complacency. BTW crab, I had previously been informed that neither made it, so I am glad to hear that they did pull through.

Several disturbing points/questions:

1. tecpilot said it was a training mission. To do live winch training with no outs has been erradicated in this new risk management world - and this video is just the example needed to demonstrate why. Rescue personnel place themselves in danger often enough to save lives, why do it in training? It is not too hard to find a small drop/wall with a nice flat base and practice the cliff techniques in safety. This particualr accident was some time ago now, and it provided a catalyst for an examination of our training so as to learn from others. Re examine yours too.

2. tecpilot makes the point that the crew were unaware of the belay situation, thus may have cut the cable instead of fly away. The video shows a winch of a few meters prior to the cut, so I would assume that there was some signal from ground to air indicating the status of the belay prior to winch. Or at least this is one more lesson for the review of procedures: ensure clear and unambiguous signals so that ground and air parties hold the same mental model of the situation. This is simply a human error failing and has happened many times in the past: so it is a reminder to get the right signals, and dont compromise. Perhaps ground to air comms is the way of the future as tecpilot suggests, so we can engineer out this defficiency.

3. It would be intresting to hear the emergency brief, and see how that translated into the actions. For example, they may have pre determined a cut should malfunction occur before coming off their securing point, and a flyaway after. This then under lies the importance of point 2 and the critical nature of shared mental models.

A very sad occurence that should provide yet another motivation for review of winch ops and training. the more discussion on this thread the better!

Hi guys, I just want to tell you that I know the 2 firemen personally and the pilot himself.....
he was banned to fly for the firemen EVER again.....
I have seen the full images, were the helicopter is shown (BO-105) , he is totally out of wind...fighting it...then it wants to weathercock ... and CUT! just terible.

SC

I thought I remembered it being an Agusta 109??

I've got the information that one was a dummy and the rescuer survived. But one or two makes no difference for our thread.

During investigations the crew reported: The crew encountered wind problems and cutted the hoist, not knowing that the load was under way.

Looking to the clip we see that the rescuer is clearly indicating the upward signal and the hoist is going on. In this moment the helicoptercrew especially the hoist operator must be max concentrated on the lifting process. Therefore i'm not sure if the crew was unaware to see the load is up from ground. The hoist operator looked downward, loaded cable and the pilot needed more collective. The cable was cutted by the pilot. May be in strong and gusting wind he didn't note the more power and that the load was on their way. But what kind of intercomm they used? Didn't the operator talk to the pilot?

Next problem is the missed radiolink to the rescuer. In case of any cable release it's nearly impossible to inform the ground rescuer. The rescuer isn't informed about the problems above his head. Thats anyway a problem on such radiofree missions. Engine failure, any kind of powerdropping, hoist failure,... how is it possible to inform the "load". I remember the accident with the A 119 Koala in Austria, non radiolink, engine control problems, after more than 30 minutes and climbing up to more than 12,000 ft, OAT -25°C the rescuer was dropped into the Bodensee and died. Must be a horrortrip!

Why we do see up to today radiofree lifts? Equipment is available and it's cheap compared with the helicoptercosts, not more than 2000€ for a radiohelmet and a portable radio. 2000€ is the average price for ONE mission in the Alps.

How could a crew rate safe the weather conditions? Wind speed isn't the one and only factor. 20kt anyway allowed by manufacturer could be to much in some situations and on others 40kt are ok.

How many training needs the envolved personal? Some operators check their pilots any 3 months, the next 6 months, 12 months or they don't fly annually training. Some rescuers don't ever train annually or only 3-5 hurry lifts in 10 minutes.

Some operators in Europe are very professional and good, but the other side... We have some very experienced pilots and rescuers but due to the widen numbers of helicopters performing hoist or short haul missions the number of involved personal is increasing.

What's with risk management? In the Alps we have any year a increasing number of hoist and shorthauls. Nearly any broken ankle on ski slope must be "rescued" by shorthaul. It's comfortable for the ground troops and lucratively for the operators. If i train mountain troopers often they think a shorthaul or hoist mission is exciting but only a game. And they have that opinion from some TV shows and from some company managers trying to increase their business. Unfortunately is any shorthaul much more risky than the ground transport of the broken ankle by sleight (akja) from a well prepared ski slope.

I am amazed at the lack of comment on this accident. We have an English crew generate 9 pages of respnse for a straight forward, well thought out rescue, and not even two for this example.

Lots more what if's here:
1. Did the pilot "take the weight" or did the crewman do it using the up switch? Was the sudden downdraught the pilot thought he was in just the weight of the load coming off?
2. What was the pilot's mental model of what was going on? Did the crewman to pilot link fail, or the ground to crewman?
3. Why has this not reignited the debate about cable cutters?

just wondering...........

747 of rwy in DUS
 

just through the radio:

This morning a 747 freighter went of the runway during landing rollout. Two engines on fire, but extinguished quickliy by airport fire service. No injuries and delays in the operations.

... right now Metar:

EDDH 240720Z 36010KT 9999 FEW025 M01/M04 Q1016 05720187 15710187 NOSIG

original: WDR news radio

Flughafen Düsseldorf: Frachtmaschine fing Feuer

Auf dem Düsseldorfer Flughafen ist am Morgen eine Frachtmaschine von der Landebahn abgekommen.

Zwei Triebwerke der Boeing 747 der ***** aus Dubai fingen Feuer. Die Flughafen-Feuerwehr konnte den Brand schnell löschen. Verletzt wurde niemand, so ein Sprecher des Flughafens. Der Flugbetrieb sei zurzeit leicht eingeschränkt.

Pittspilot

Search & Rescue Statistics 2004
 

From the MoD Annual Report:-

In 2004, there were 1,551 UK or overseas incidents resulting in 1,698 callouts of Royal Navy and RAF Helicopters, Nimrod aircraft and Mountain Rescue Teams, who moved 1,442 people.


Incidents and callouts fell slightly compared with 2003; however the number of people moved increased by almost ten per cent, largely due to three major incidents in August.


On 7 August 2004, 2 Military Helicopters moved 35 cockle pickers to safety from rising tides in Morecambe Bay.


On 16 August 2004, 6 Sea King helicopters moved 91 people to safety from floods in Boscastle on the north coast of Cornwall.


On 18 August 2004, a Royal Navy and a RAF Sea King helicopter moved 53 people after landslides near Lochearnhead in Scotland.


96% of callouts in 2004 were in or around the UK. The others were in or around Cyprus or the Falkland Islands.


94% of UK callouts in 2004 were to civilian incidents.


60% of UK callouts in 2004 were to Scotland, the South West region or Wales. A further 16% of callouts were at sea.

These stats just go to show what a fantastic job our SAR boys and girls are doing.

A truly professional team.

Keep it up!!!!

:ok:

And...................................

Weren't they just doing what they are paid to to do from their comfy UK bases.

Can we expect to see similar stats from those deployed doing a 'fantastic job' in far flung places.

Before I receive a tirade of abuse, I admire the SAR boys of both services for the job they do, but what do these stats prove? What is an incident? Sure there were a couple of high-profile events, but the amount of coverage afforded (RAF News, etc) is often disproportionate.

Standby for incoming.

Thinking of getting a new pair of slippers. SAR Gods have any tips?

'Weren't they just doing what they are paid to to do from their comfy UK bases.'

They can't take their comfy bases with them on a shout.

Can't think of anything else sensible to say until I simmer down!

Do those stats also include the people on the 4 civilian SAR bases that do the same job with equal enthusiasm, dedication and skill??

Taff

As far i am aware it is only statistics for the RAF and RN, not HMCG unfortunately.
I should imagine the HMCG website might publish their own information regarding 'lives saved' and how many call outs they have had etc.

Haven't we had that discussion before on a different thread?
:hmm:

You tw4t - That figure probably includes the 4 guys from HMS Portland who were killed whilst conducting Search and Rescue operations last year.

Rather than criticise our SAR forces we should congratulate them for the sterling effort they do in all weathers and without hesitation for the safety of themselves.

Maybe just one day you may need these guys.

Is Twinact perhaps envious of those that gain so much excellent publicity, never mind at risk to themselves at times?

Maybe the Chinook could take on SAR standby duties 24/7 - then maybe he wouldn't be so quick to make pratt and unnecessary comment on a thread there to congratulate those crews on the fine work do daily...

No Twinact,

They Weren't just doing what they are paid to to do from their comfy UK bases

it's not the SAR force's primary job to save the civies - main job is downed aircrew

Certainly not criticising the SAR boys, but ref:
I see from my logbook for almost exactly 11 years ago to the day that I went with the rest of our standby Chinook crew on a SAR task from Odiham to 260 nm SW of Cork - MV Christaniki or something like that. We were also used to back up the SAR boys in the FI from time to time.

Sadly, the Cork task was the last time I ever flew with Jon Tapper - greatly missed.

Twinact,

May I be so bold and tell you that during my time, I served on a SAR unit (202 at Lossie) as well as a couple of Nimrod sqns prior to that and I finished my RAF flying last year on E-3's. So without wishing to sound too smug, I do have just a little bit of experience of both sides of this fence.

Firstly I should tell you that you are talking utter bo££ocks Sir.

'Weren't just doing what they are paid to to do from their comfy UK bases'

Well, yes, to a point I suppose your'e correct. But there is nothing comfy about being woken at 2, 3, 4 o'clock in the morning for SAROPS. I'm not moaning about it. It was the best job I ever did in the RAF, and I wish I could go back to it! But its not particularly 'comfy' is it?

and 'Can we expect to see similar stats from those deployed doing a 'fantastic job' in far flung places' well, I very much hope that we will. There is nobody I know who would question the contribition the Chinook world makes. Indeed, as a fellow Helo operator, I have the utmost respect for them all.

But please don't get shi££y with 'us' SAR boys because of the publicity we are given. It is simply a fact of life that when the world sees a big yellow egg whisk (or grey and Red for the RN) it is usually good news, for some one at least.

And, if you crave such publicity then why not join the SAR fleet?
I'm sure you will love it. But 202 sqn at Lossie at 4 am on a very cold, snowy January morning is definately not 'comfy'

Kind regards to all
The swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, send Twinact a reality pill would you please old boy'

Twinact,

The reason for this disproportionate amount of publicity for the Yellow budgies is simply because they are extremely good at going out and getting it. I am sure that there are guys out it the great sand pit getting shot at flying possibly more dangerous sorties than the average SAROPS. Its just that they are not so good at (or cannot) getting huge amounts of publicity.

Having said that given the choice of Lossie at 3am or Basra? mmm let me think which would be more comfortable........ Maybe you have a point.

I would like to just add my voice and concur fully with TSW. However, I Think the discussion ref publicity is very iffy ground. On other threads on this site there are people publically declaring their hate for journo's because they exposed a waste of public funds: Pizza delivery, Boys outing to Switzerland etc etc. Then on this thread we have guys discussing how importanmt Publicity is and how the guys in the sand are not getting the publicity they deserve.
What do people think about that? It appears that we only want good publicity and are not happy when the bad stuff comes along but as one chap said..."There is no such thing as bad publicity"

SAR forces not deployable? They certainly used to be - there used to be a couple of grey RAF SAR Sea Kings in the Falklands. They may be still there, for all I know.

And well done to all SAR peeps - RAF, RN, UKCG, whatever their aicraft, and wherever they are - for the efforts they make to save lives. I, for one, am very grateful that they exist.

As we all know, stats can be used to prove anything (or nothing) depending on the eye of the beholder.

However, as far as standby goes, most of the Armed Forces (and UKCG - and RNLI while we are about it) are on standby 24/7 for something or other, and when required respond in whatever way required.

Re SAROPSI've done SAR in SH aircraft (and Shacks of course) and SH tasks in SAR. Like T_and_B my crew and I also got over 11 hours strapped to a Chinook West of Cork - only this was 20 years ago - when called out on standby one Sunday. Odiham also generated 2 other non standby crews and aircraft (complete with winches that had not been used before) which were airborne on task within three hours from the initial call. (Air India)

Guys,

May I just point out that we are all on the same side here! It takes something (prob stupidity!) to fly into a known enemy threat, just as it does night mountain flying in blizzards and strong winds. I think we ought to go down the jast jet de-brief route with this.. ie. 'You were great mate!' ' Nah dude, you were better!':}

Damn straight up Greeny dude!

Take a bow SAR buddies. Top job!

I only hope we meet again in the bar and not fishing me out of the drink like last time (night wet drills only but still chuffing cold dark and scary!).

Keep it up and may the Schwartz be with you (badly veiled Spaceballs ref.)

Turbine

Did anyone else spot....
 

Jamie form Eastern Atlantic being interviewed on 'Seaside Rescue' on BBC One last night? :E Surfs up Dude!!!:E

Seaside Rescue
 

I've been watching the TV series Seaside Rescue - more for the flying than any other reason.

Firstly, I'd like to say that the guys who fly SAR helos do a fantastic job.

Can someone answer a question for me though? When the winchman is hanging out of the door calling 'forward one', 'left two' etc, is he meaning 'go left two (units)' or is it some sort of countdown, i.e '6 go right, 5 go straight, 4 go left etc etc' ??

It's an arbitrary value, but usually thought of as yards or feet. As an example, if you're hovering over a spot and are being directed to a load/survivor to the front and right of you by 50 yards, the winchman would say something like "forward and right, 2'o clock, 50 yards....20 yards....10 yards....forward and right 1'o clock.....5 yards.....3 yards....easy....easy...steady"

Now the distance might not be 50 yards, may be nearer 100 yards. the important bit for the pilot is the calling of the reduction in distance. As long as the countdown in distance to the load indicates a relative distance to travel, "yards" could be replaced by "bananas" or "light years" - but most people understand yards (or feet, or even metres) so they're the most common.

This is the procedure you'd see in the RN - the RAF / HMCG may use variations on this theme - dropping the "yards" altogether, as you quote in your example, i guess.

Twinact,
Couldn't disagree with your post more mate. Most of my reasons have already been covered by others but think this one through. What would you (or I) think if this thread was congratulating 1310flt or the rest of JHF(I) and a SARBOUY wrote a reply saying we were just doing our jobs from the comfort of a (badly) air conditioned tent?
I accept that your post wasn't meant to be ill mannered but with all that has happened lately it is nice to see some good press.

Seem to remember there's an aging RAF bloke who has always been on SAR Flights. He's known as a "search and" pilot 'cos he's never done a rescue!

Greenhaven, I am sure you will enjoy the ongoing efforts to 'harmonise' RN and RAF SAR procedures and terminology - it will be interesting to see whose patter ends up being adopted. I think the grand plan is to get mil SAR all singing from the same hymn sheet before we then try to get commonality with HMCG. The cynical would say this is a precursor to privatising all SAR as it will be much easier to do if everyone operates the same way. Personally, since 202 and 22 (RAF SAR Sqns) do things differently with the same aircraft despite common SOPs and orders and Culdrose and Prestwick operate differently, I think the chances of achieving 'Harmonisation' is as likely as the 3 military services ever managing a truly joint/purple establishment without one or other trying to take control all the time.

BTW the SH force is so stretched that the RAF SARforce now covers for some of its UK committments and many SAR boys are doing out of area ground detachments in Basra and elsewhere.
The Falklands Sea Kings are still there and most RAF SAR crews will do a 6 week det there once a year (or thereabouts).

PS most of the 'comfy crewrooms' are in aging, poorly maintained buildings because funding for new buildings is constantly being reviewed and never given.

PPS the military SAR force is operating aging aircraft which (with the exception of the Mk3A Sea King) would not get airworthiness certification by modern criteria because of the failure modes of the autopilot - but no-one will find the money to do anything about it.

UK Coastguard SAR - Bristow out??
 

BBC has just announced that the UK Coastguard has declared CHC Scotia as the preferred bidder for the next contract currently being negotiated. Bristows are contesting the bidding process.

Great - things are looking up for CHC-Scotia - retaining the Total contract and now expanding the SAR division. All I need now is the SAR at Lossie to go civil:ok:

HF

You're too old an amphibian for them there mountains!

Cheeky Cyclic I'm not that old

Done it once before - though I must admit that the NVGs have improved since my time so you can now go further into the hills at night:sad:

Scary
HF