Ozz Fire Season
 

G'day to all.

Does anyone have any info on fire season in Australia for this year? Some people say it won't be a good (for helicopter operators that is) one and some people say it will be the same as last year.
Any comments???

And heard that the fire services are trying to get rid of the 206s/H500s.Is this true and will they still be using AS350s??

From early reports the season will be the same as the last.
My opinion is different because so far it appears the el nino wont pay us a visit. I think this summer will be cooler with more rain.
Going off statistics a good fire season (for operators) is generally 1 in 4-5 years. Back to backs are really rare, infact apart from last year I cant think of two strong ones like that.
The operations this year will aparently different, 206s, and older 500s will be out for bucketing, but will be used for fire co-ordination.
This year there is also a federal aerial fire fighting administation which will have contracted aircraft for different regions of Aus.
To get a med contract your ship has to lift 2500kg of payload, and able to carry 10.
The heavys have to lift 5000kg min. (cant remember the pax No.s)
Cant recall the atittude towards the 350s, but I think they'll still be bucketing with their better payload. As far as Im aware anything that can lift 1000kg will still be considered eligable for bucket work.
Hope this helps a little, its only what I ve heard, not spoken to any RFS people about it.
Sure some one will disagree.

well if we get another season like the last one 2002-2003, we will all be back to work in what ever they can get there hands on, im sure the fire departments RFS-DPI-NP- and so on would love big mobs of med-heavy choppers on bucketing work and bell206's and so on doing air attack and alike but here in ozz we dont have anought large chopper's to do the work even with all the imports over summer we will be a long way short, if B206's and alike are not doing bucket like we did in NSW we will be sitting back watching roam burn and playing with our fiddle's, also where do pilots get experiance on bucketing work if they dont get it in these smaller choppers, most of if not all the Australian pilots flying larger helicopters did their time bucketing with smaller choppers, i have heard that the Victorian contracts will just be rolled over this year, and thay have for a long time only bucket with med-large choppers, big shame as whos getting the practise who is the up and comming pilots, not victorians i can tell you if you come from over sea's you stand a good chance of getting work this year, if you can fly big!
PS wait and see if the fixed wing bommers get work. i have heard that thay are being droped after the last one went in near Ovens:oh: :{ :(

Catch 22
 

Catch 22 isint it??

Need 1500hrs PIC AND bucketing experience to fly, but then how do you get the experience if you can't do the work.

Only in aviation!!:)

The weather will depend on El Ninoas usual, and I am with Spaced - longer range forecasts dont think it will come again this year.

.As for 206s, etc, I hope that is a joke. Go back three years, and it was hard to get a AS350 or BK on the fire because they were "too expensive" (only now the fire agencies are understanding the cents per litre arguements - talking NSW here).
The 206 is very suited to bucketing, and in particular, EXCELLENT for mop up.
1. Very little downwash on a long line. Why go out in a BK117 and fan up more than you put out? Also, it doesnt strip tree branches off nor stir up ash and crap around the mop up crew you are working with.
2. The bucket is small enough to be easily manouevred by hand at the bottom of your line to the exact position the ground crew want.
3. There is not really enough water to hurt anyone when you are working in close to the mop up crew, and you dont have to worry about dropping uphill of the crew.
4. Because there is so much positioning and waiting during mop up, the bigger machines begin to lose their cost per litre advantages.
5. The bigger machines can be moved to active fire front where they excel.

......and probably more reasons. Someone please tell me they are NOT going to stop them bucketing!
:confused:

It sounds to me as though the Fire departments are pretty serious about not using the smaller choppers this year. There have been quite a few purchases over the winter of 204s, 205s in anticipation of this. In fact every one seems to be talking about since the last fire season is whether or not they will go through with it, it will probably depend on the extent of the fires.
From what I have heard the main ones to be effected will be the 206 and the older 500s. At this stage it seems that any thing from the 206L up will be used to bucket.
One thing that may effect the amount of civilian choppers flying is the use of Mil Blackhawks. After their use to protect the pollies homes last year in Canberra there is talk of making a few available for fire work.
However there are also alot of people saying that there arent enough choppers in Aus to be that picky about which choppers they use and that once the season starts it will be bussiness as usual. Only time will tell I guess.
I totally agree with you DC I dont understand the restrictions they put on the poilts qualifications, how can you get the experience when they activly make it near impossible for you to achieve. I think the industry is lucky that so many involved really want to be here, I cant think of any other industry where I would be prepared to pay so much, to get so screwed around.

I don't really think that a 206/L, 500 is going to be more effective than a 205, 212, 412.

The Victorian's have lead the way for many years now with a dedicated service using the 205, 212, 412's.

I'm sure the 206's and the like have a purpose, however I don't believe that it should involve them having a bucket attached below.

clearance,
I'm guessing that you're a Bell boy as you don't mension any other makes of aircraft that would be suitable.:}
Does your "206's and the like " include AS350s with atleast 680ltr buckets?

DC,

Not at all, Sorry if I gave you that impression. I was just refuring to the types mentioned in the previous post.

Cheers.

clearance,
as per my previous post, I disagree. I think a 206 size acft with a long line is an excellent mop up acft, and I certainly think that it is more effective in this role than a 205/212/412, for all the reasons I mentioned previously. Especially more effective than belly tank equiped mediums.


:ok:

Lead the way?
 

I agree with HF, the smaller buckets are excellent for mopping up, and should still have a place in the scheme of things. However, advances in bucket design may obviate this, eg the DUFAS with it's variable fill and multi drop. We used the DUFAS last season, and it was quite impressive both from the flying point of view, and for the troops on the ground. The ability to vary the fill according to aircraft weight and performance, then the multi drop capability which is ideal to deal with mopping up currently the domain of the 206. A long line is essential, even with 100' the BK's downwash is intrusive, but it may lead to less reliance on smaller machines.

Clearance, I'd modify your assertion that Victorian's have led the way. Media publicity aside, there are pro's and con's to the current reliance upon belly tank equipped mediums, to the exclusion of (almost) all else. Prime example would be last season's Alpine extravaganza, where support to Mt Hotham was extremely limited, and when it came as a bucket equipped 412, there were hours of support preparation required. The nearest water source (Swindler's Creek) at the bottom of the valley (c. 5200' amsl) would have been no problem for a bucket on a long line, but was no good for the 412. A buoywall had to be taken to Hotham, erected in the car park (at 6000' amsl), filled via the snowmaking pump system (major drain on resources at the resort to achieve), all for 3 hours bucketing. IMHO, a more flexible use of available assets may often produce a better result.

No argument that a belly tank is good over the urban areas, but the dogmatic approach leaves little room for variation. How often would a bucket on a medium or long line be able to access a water source denied to a the (short) schnorkel on a belly tank machine? Often enough for it to be an issue, in my experience, especially if the belly tank machine has to increase its transit distance and times as a result. For the bush and parks areas that comprise the major land mass of NSW and Victoria, the belly tank concept has severe limitations, especially in times of drought. I've lost track, are we 5 or 6 years into the current drought?

Just my two pennyworth ;)

Hi John
Very good points but what depth of water does a belly tank machine need compared to a bucket, even a small one?
I know in Tassie a Bell 205 was picking up water from a shallow creek whereas my 350 with a bucket couldn't. I think it reasonable to have all types available.:O

Nigel,

Absolutely, but the new generation of buckets often have bottom fill capability. Bambi have the "Powerfill", and the DUFAS also fills from the bottom when needed, albeit relatively slowly.

No system that I know is perfect, but it often appears that the bucket has a lot more going for it (for mediums) than a belly tank, especially in Oz conditions.

John,
do you have any comments on the B3s operating with bellytanks in WA?

Air Attack
 

Hello all,

Whilst the post concentrates on bucketing or other water delivery methods, there has always been plenty of work for 206 and AS350 in the reconniassance role (Air Attack).

John and Helmet Fire (and other experienced fire fighters), you have a fair bit of time working with and without Air Attack support. What are your thoughts?

Gibbo

DC,

At least they're finally using helicopters after years of resistance! The application is new and previously unproven, but I'm sure that it will be a major asset to WA. Bear in mind the limitations of belly tanks as already mentioned ;)

Gibbo,

Are you still in Europe? AAS can be a terrific asset, usually able to direct the medium to best advantage, often hitting a key area not noticed by the bomber pilot. However, communication is often difficult, and it can be a real PITA to waste hours of effort because the AAS was just to overloaded trying to task too many assets.

Some of the most effective work is often done by a combination of a canny AAS, who will use a couple of mediums with a broad direction only, relying on the experience of the pilots to corral the head and limit the fire front. And the experienced pilot is the one who knows when to call in the AAS to take the blame :cool:

Still based in Athens John. Woke up this morning to a temp 30 celsius, will be a scorcher today!
Living in northern part of Athens, with a view over military airfield. Plenty of Fire Aviation in these parts, with Canadairs, Mils and the occaisional Skycrane coming and going. The Greeks throw plenty of assets at fires! Pity I am not a part of it; would be great to see how they do business.

Good view of AAS John, can be a bit hit and miss depending on the variables (Pilot, supervisor, task, assets, etc) Hope I wasn't a PITA ;)

Regards to all down under, fly safe.

Gibbo

HM - Sorry for the delay with my reply...
Quote "as per my previous post, I disagree. I think a 206 size acft with a long line is an excellent mop up acft" Unquote - I'm sure it is! However, does that mean a 412 is an excellent 'Air Attack' platform, probably is, but a bit expensive... All I'm saying is that each type has a 'place' within the operation depending on a variety of factors. I'm not saying they shouldn't be used, I'm saying that I can see why the 'powers to be' maybe reluctant to use them as in future (mentioned previously).


John Eacott...

You said - "Clearance, I'd modify your assertion that Victorian's have led the way. Media publicity aside, there are pro's and con's to the current reliance upon belly tank equipped mediums, to the exclusion of (almost) all else"

Now John, all I have said is that the Vic's have been operating (under contract, not adhoc) multi and medium single-eng fire fighting aircraft for many, many years. Unlike NSW, that just grab what ever they can at the time (I realise that things are changing, albeit slowly).

PS: It is good to see WA with a dedicated service, over the next few years when they get extra funding they 'will' up grade to twins, trust me :-)

;)

Have Lama's ever been used in Oz for fire seasons?

How do yall rate the Air Tractor 802 or have been on a fire with one?
Barryb