Needwork,

If my memory serves me right, I seem to recall a customer wanting the benefits of floats, but the option of plain skids.
The aircraft came with two sets, floated and plain, from the factory. The only thing was that it was a Clipper airframe.


I could be getting confused (which is, at the end of the day, entirely possible!!:\ :\ ) but the more I think about the more it sounds right!!

Hope that is of some help.

We have a Clipper II with both fixed float and regular skid gear. The Clipper has extra anticorrosion protection, an additional bit of stabilizer on the empennage, position lights on the rotor mast fairing, and an second (white) anticollision strobe.

While the Robinson advertising calls the fixed floats "fixed utility floats", the POH tells a different story. Water landings are not recommended except in emergencies. Depending on the weight of the helicopter, when the Clipper is floating the water level may be near (perhaps at) the door sills.

It is a great helicopter, and having floats sure eases your mind when flying over all the lakes we have up here! Changing the skid gear takes well under an hour as long as you have the hoist fitting and a big enough hoist or crane.

Has anybody had any experience of having to "pop" the floats when doing an autorotation into water. Just wandering how the helicopter behaves in the air when the two inflatable shoes are filling up.

Just curious.

R44 Cold starting
 

Hi all,

I'm having a lot of trouble starting my R44 with the cold mornings. Stupid sunrise flights.
There is no primer kit installed.
Does anyone have some good techniques, or tips so that I don't flood the engine or destroy the battery/alternator.

Andy M

These things can be a real swine to start when its cold. Never gets cold enough where I am to have a problem, however a few friends down in Perth that drive them reckon that if you raise the collective and pump the throttle several times and then pump it some more, it should start ok. Obviously make sure the lever is down and the throtle is shut before you hit the key;)

Agree with Helimatt, the infrequent cold starts I've had to do in the 44 where performed as described above..

Good luck and make sure the throttle is closed before hitting the ignition, can be costly otherwise (from experience).

I assume your leaving it outside overnight? They need warm air in the airbox to help vaporize the fuel. If you are able to come up with an electric heater that blows warm air, aim it under the airbox for 10 min before you try and start it. Don’t put it directly under the box incase it drips fuel. If there is any wind you need some sort of wind break. Note of caution, don’t twist the throttle or move the collective up while the heater is under there. (Dont need any fuel dripping) Of course make sure the heater isn't blowing hot enough to melt anything, or blister any paint.

Make sure you have everything organized for the flight and last thing you do is remove the heater. A few twists of the throttle with the collective up to prime it, and start normally.

Many moons ago I was unfortunate enough to be stuck overnight in the bush due to snow and zero ceiling. We woke up to 3 inches of snow and temps well below freezing. I tried the Robbie a few times and it didn’t show any intention at all of starting. We were about 150 miles from the nearest road. We lit a fire (away from the heli) and stuck a shovel filled with sand in the hot coals to warm up the sand. We then pressed the warm sand against the bottom of the airbox with the shovel. It started immediately.

The heater trick is kind of a last resort if you cant roll it inside overnight. Darn primers never seemed to make much diference anyway from what I can remember....

DMNH

Raven II
 

From your post I guessed you fly a Raven I. The Raven II has similar problems starting ie. engine flooding and little reaction from the starter motor, the difference being it happens when the machine is hot.

Recommended to prime the engine with mixture full and Magnetos off, full throttle for around three seconds before trying starter for another 3 seconds.

Then close throttle and follow the Robinson manual start-up procedure. Haven't tried it yet....will report on success rate:ok:

Having just done a trip round half of Oz with 4 R 22/44s can relate our experiences.

We had quite a few cold mornings with difficulty to start.

We had a can of "Aerostart". Actually we a can of its generic equivalent "Start-ya-bastard". It is an aerosol can of some sort of highly flammable stuff. As you can see I really know what I am talking about too :O
I had never seen it before but the guys I was with have used it on previous trips. So I watched them use it first and got them to do the spraying while I turned over the engine. Started quick every time except one - Tamworth -with ice on the bubble covers. The battery ran flat so we had to jump start it from a four wheel drive.

Now I am told there is a risk of doing bad things to your engine so I take no responsibility if you try it and and if it happens. I think the problem can arise from spraying too much but exactly what it can do I don't know.:sad:


What you do is:

Get a rag folded into a wad. Need one person on the controls and one on the spray can. Place the wad over a bit more than half or so of the air intake opening. Hold the can ready and when the ignition is turned on spray short bursts of spray into the air intake. Most times it fired up on first or second turn.

I would recommend asking around and finding someone who has used it and really knows what they are doing. I was just a grateful bystander - so-to-speak. But at least you know the stuff exists.

I would strongly recomend AGAINST using Aerostart in a heli engine. It is a product that contains a large amount of ether (which is good for putting the nighbours dog to sleep when it wont stop barking) and it is gererally used to get tired diesel engines started. For some reason the prolonged use of the product seems to cause the engines to develop a dependence for it and often wont start without it, the last thing you want in a $35000 donk.
This advice has not come about from personal experience, but from what I have been told by other people. So it could be totaly incorrect
Regards

Huh??
 

Helimatt wrote

`prolonged use of this product (aerostart) seems to cause the engines to develop a dependence for it....`


:confused: :confused:

I have no personal experiences to offer concerning this situation but a machine with a dependence problem???:confused:

If this problem does occur, is on going and gets worse as the aerostart process is repeated is there anyone out there who can explain the science behind what is happening :\

Not doubting you or your information source Helimatt - would just like some type of mechanical clarification/explanation to aid in the possible expansion of my knowledge base.

:)

Simply open and close the throttle 3 or 5 times BEFORE hitting the start key (Raven 1).

Raven II - Throttle closed and prime for 5 seconds.

Worked for me in -20 with the machine kept outside (Covered up though)

Thanks for the replies.
I am using an Astro, and I dream of one day having a hanger to use. I like the idea of the heater, but this isn't practical for me.
I have been raising the collective several times with the mixture set to full. With the collective raised, I'll pump the throttle. Some people say pump the throttle up to 15 times. Surely that is too much?
This morning it took over ten minutes, before I had to resort to the jump start (external battery ) technique due to flat R44 battery. When it did start, the Alt light remained illuminated for 40 secs, before turning off. The Alt load meter was very positive before returning to the normalised state. I viewed that this was due to the alternator output being drained by the weak R44 batt.

Andy M

Nothing wrong with 15+ primes with a cold engine sat outside all night.

Our Astro can take 30 primes before the fuel starts to leave the carby (that is when it is too much).

Our Raven 1 only needs 8 primes when cold and been outside all night, but they all start within 2 seconds of turning the key and no need for external power.

I have also heard of the lift the collective up and prime with the lever still up technique, don't know what difference lifting the collective is going to make!

We once got stucked in the middle of nowhere, temperatures went down to - 30°C and where still down at - 20°C in the morning when we were trying to fire it up.
We were using the same kind of stuff RobboRider was talking about (I think it was called "Auto Start Pilot" :O ). This in combination with the priming worked just fine.

But then the mechanic came up with the idea trying to find out what the limitations for the R44 were as far as cold weather operations is concerned.
At those times the factory told us that if we were able to fire it up we were able to fly it. "Just give it plenty of time to warm up."
Any news on that? Haven't been in a Robbie for quite a while.

I've used the same techniques as RobboRider and Spunk have... give it a short blast of "whatever-you-call-it" in the air intake as someone is cranking the machine. It works very well, and I haven't noticed any increasing need to use it over time. I've only done it on really cold mornings (not too many of those in Maryland except January/February).

At a Robinson safety course a couple of years ago at Torrance Pat Cox was most emphatic that to prime the engine before start, when the primer is not fitted, you should raise the collective, then twist the throttle.

Most people that I have watched twist the throttle when the collective is down. I am not sure why this is ineffective but I believe it must be to do with the way the vapour distributes into the manifold when the raised collective allows the vapour to go past the butterfly.

I have also seen people on cold mornings give five quick twists of the throttle then hit the start key. No start. What you should be doing is to wait for the squirt of fuel to vapourise into the manifold, which may take ten to fifteen seconds on a cold (i.e. ISA -15) day.

One day all aircraft will have fuel injection. Aye and maybe one day man will fly to the moon...

(Irony alert ;) )

Slightly off thread but I m sure there is also something in the handbook - at least in the R22 one - about not jump starting the aircraft.

I believe there is a risk of damage to the alternator and charging system due to the excessive load?

Haven't got POH with me so can't check.

PW

Rasie the collective, then twist throttle to prime (3-5) times works well.

Just think about why this works... when your flying, rasing the collective does what? > adds power, right, so more fuel is being allowed to flow.. same princible on the gorund, with collective down, like it would be at ground idle, not as much fule flows as in flight with the collectove up...

thats why haveing the collective up when priming , it works better:ok:

Collective up - trees small, collective down trees big.

RB

So - why is it that when someone starts the engine with collective down and throttle open, they blow the metal to bits ? Lots of black (rich) smoke and grinding noises.....and a $30,000 bill.