Well guys on not wishing to stick my head in a lions mouth or walk on a mine field.
you all know i am just under 400 hours IR etc i did apply to the address above and sent my CV but not clear lf this is how it gos but to date i have not got a reply could this indicate that they are still looking for High time pilots. or is it that the chap is on leave and not got to his mail yet. I have also asked for information from this chap as to the state of play over there with regard to low time pilots in the left seat and would hope that although i think it is high time that they are looking for a little bit of insite into ops over there would be usefull
i will keep you posted.


Sincerely

Bravo 99 (AJB)

bravo 99,

I'm also low time and got a reply the very next day from Dave, who was very polite and informative on the situation of low time guys out there.
I'm sure he will get beck to you.

Good luck with the job hunting:E

YARBA:

"Airtoday is an anagram of airy toad etc etc"; explain the whole sentence please.

I thought the thread was about pay and conditions, not prejudice. It's up to individuals whether a package suits their needs; but don't expect a foreign culture to be just like your home. If the whole deal's wrong, move along. It's called supply and demand.

At the same time remember there is a large supply of good but badly paid pilots from Australia and Canada looking to improve their lot and maybe they are the target of the advert.

When I started this thread I was offering pilots work; which seemed to me not too unworthy a thing to do.
From the initial responses received you would have thought that I was offering to buy your sisters.
Not every job going is the best paid, such is the nature of things.
Over the years many pilots have come here from less well paid positions; improved themselves, and gained experience. Many then left for better pay somewhere else. It's the way of the world.
To be met by howls of derision from such as Mickey Mouse with his "hahaha" who then comes back to try and take the moral high ground is ludicrous.
Another of those replying (no names) has just left here very recently. I know for a fact that he left a better, and more professional pilot than when he arrived. He has gone on to a more well paid job and none of his colleagues gave him a hard time for leaving. Quite the reverse, in fact, everyone was wishing him and his family the best of futures.
Many companies, including those in this part of the world, have gained benefit from the professionalism of our ex employees.
We prefer that our pilots stay as long as possible, and many do, as we give good living conditions and an excellent working environment. Also Dubai gives pilots' wives the chance to work if they are inclined to do so and this is a bonus to many.
My apologies if anyone was offended when I bit back a little at some of those with a very negative input. It should be me who took offence at the frontal assault received from entering an honest job ad.
No offence taken. What I want to do though, is thank all of you who replied to me applying for the job. I wish we had enough positions available to give you all the work which has been so scorned upon by some of those who replied above in their well paid ivory towers.
The response has been magnificent. I have had the chance to reply to about thirty so far and I will send a reply to the rest of you in the next few days when I get time to do so.
Unfortunately for those with lower time, or not rated on the Bell 212, I have been given a lot of choice. Surprisingly we seem to have far more experienced and qualified people looking to come here than those who we are looking to replace.
I must also say that any views given in this thread, other than those directly relating to the jobs offered, are my own only.


All the best
Airy Toad

If you would prefer single status living in crap accommodation for a bit more money then there are other operators in the Gulf better equipped.

Dave ([email protected])


Dave,

I think ,upon reading my post again to make sure I said what I thought I had said....the above quote from yours is what jangled your chain....when compared to my statement that $50,000 US local tax free was no big deal. That is what a great many of American pilots are making now...after paying US Taxes and being able to live at home.

Anyone that does not think the potential for being a target for some Paradise Bound Extremist exists in the Middle East or downtown Brooklyn for that matter...needs a reality check. I will accept that Bahrain, Dubai, and some other places in that part of the world are much better than some others...but still Bubba ain't welcome by all of the locals.

I do not walk in fear of them...have very recently entertained a potential offer to fly in Baghdad...and when a formal offer is made...will decide what to do based upon the totality of the offer to include pay and duties compared to risks. I will freely admit that $50,000 dollars per year to live in the Middle East full time is not enough to draw me there...in fact...that is not very far from the pay I got for my first Middle East gig way back in the early 70's.

You answered the question of why you do not pay more....you can get guys to work for such wages until they can find something better....not an attitude I would hold out as being the one I would endorse as a manager and don't in actuality. I want to locate, recruit, hire, and retain good people...and keep them until they retire. It makes life a lot nicer for all concerned.

I would have thought all pilots would be looking to improve.
The ones who apply for the job are probably improving on the job they have now.

Money seems to be the motivation-----to hell with the life style.

Lets face it ,how many of you guys,if the opportunity arrived ,and the money wasnt too bad,got offered a job 5 miles from home.

Then there is the "experience the world" factor..If you happen to like a place to do the life long career ,then good on ya but in most cases its JUST a job until something better or somewhere better turns up.

THATS LIFE

Thank you for your reply SASless.

Yes, I know that the average take home pay in the US, after tax, would be about what we are offering. So, if you are looking to finish work and be home with the family an hour after landing then you should come here.
I have two growing daughters with me in Dubai. They have both gone out to see Alicia Keys in concert tonight. I don't know who she is. Next week I am going to see Bryan Ferry live. I am of an age who does know who he is.
Last year it could have been Elton John or Pink Floyd or Mariah Carey; it doesn't matter who they are, but they are all here within thirty minutes from home.
My point is that you decry such a salary for being away from home. When you are here it is home. There is far more going on in Dubai than in Des Moines or Great Falls.
My apologies for calling you SENSeless.

Regards
YT Radio

Airtoday has a point , I spent 2 and a bit years in Dubai with Aerogulf, didnt get rich by any means- but gained alot professionally, got typed in a 212 and enjoyed a different culture and enviroment to which myself and my family had previously experienced. And made alot of friends and a few enemys!
Socially its a great town , with the Rugby sevens ,concerts, Dubai World Cup etc etc
The job is a no brainer except for the night offshore flights ,which hones your night flying and IFR skills.
Give it a try , you wont get rich ,-might not even save anything,- but look at it as I did after a while,- a working holiday where you can take your family along and enjoy the time off exploring the Middle East region, Oman is right next door and trips to Muscat and Oman I will always fondly remember.
When you get sick of it ,bailout as I did and go back to the real world get a proper job and work for a living.;)

As ONE of the recently departed ( quit NOT fired, so I have no nasty bias) I thought I should take the time to post a general advisory opinion of Aerogulf Helicopters (AGS) in Dubai. Maybe some kind unbiased ADA or GHC pilots could do the same.

MONEY. AGS is the lowest paid (by far) helicopter company in the Gulf. Apparently they used to use the low oil prices as an excuse. Now they use the excuse “ We are a ‘married accompanied’ employer and this costs the company a lot of money”. How become Abu Dhabi & Gulf Helicopters have married accompanied and still pay a much better wage??? Every month this year there has been the promise of a pay increase BUT nothing has happened. There are ADA pilots renting in Dubai and commuting to work at ADA and still making more money than at AGS. Especially with a bit of work over money as well. The cost of living in Dubai is high & rising.
Speaking of promises – Get all that you are offered in the pre employment verbal discussions IN WRITING. The previous Director of Operations (KA) made all sorts of promises to new hires, about money, and there is now at least one very unhappy pilot. A note of interest about KA – He has been fired from his job in OZ. What a trail of trauma this man has left behind him!!!

ACCOMMODATION. Generally good BUT again you may not get what you were verbally offered. Home maintenance is slow and typical sub continent standard.

SCHOOL FEES: A low percentage of fees are paid BUT schooling here is EXPENSIVE.

MEDICAL INSURANCE. Good coverage BUT you have to make a healthy contribution to the premiums.

OPERATION. Very clean simple (boring) and legal, back to what it was before KA became D.Ops. UAE is well on the way to JAR compliance.

HANGAR OFFICE COMPLEX. Nice & new.

AIRCRAFT & MAINTENANCE. The ‘on the floor’ engineers are GOOD. The same cannot be said of the ‘upstairs’ people, they have been poor for some years. 6 Bell 212s - Old in years but some are reasonably young hours wise. 4 are Bell AFCS IFR and 2 are very old Sperry IFR. A mix of –3 & -3B engines. A 206. & a 412 in bits

MANAGEMENT. The GM is the only Western Helicopter GM in the GULF AREA and without doubt the most intelligent. Apparently, when he was Chief Pilot he was a very amiable caring competent person. It would seem that the GM PRESSURE is affecting him. He has become prone to temper tantrums and has loudly voiced his desire to fire every one in the company. I have heard it said that at one stage his nickname was FTF (FIRE THE F*****S). Generally he does not want to know your problems. BUT, he MUST have a soft spot in his heart because he likes to hire the Cast Off incompetents from ADA. (Not you GT).
Now GM, do not get angry. Try to remember that your workers contribute hugely to the good name of your company. Sure, they have / create the odd problem. Try a little communication and guidance. Maybe it is better ’the devil you know’ in your own company than an unknown from elsewhere.

TRAINING. Despite what I wrote about the GM, if you get him for Bell 212 training you will be in VERY good hands. As for the other Training Captain you won’t learn much at all. As another departed pilot said of him; ‘His only qualification for that job is that he baby sits the GMs dogs when the GM is on leave!!!!!’

ASSISTANT GM / D.Ops If you want to talk Tilt rotors – He is your man. Not likely to stick his neck out for anyone or anything.

CHIEF PILOT. (Dave in Dubai ) Definitely an honorable man.

ADMIN HUMAN RESOURCES. All sub continent folks but mostly they do a good job without the usual aggravation found at ADA.

DUBAI. There are lots of events and things to do. It appears to be half way between western world and Islamic world. Behave and you will be OK. Always remember you are a second class citizen when it comes to problems with the LAW. Traffic is bad- no one knows the rules and a certain group believe the rules do not apply to them anyway.
The rulers in Dubai do their best to keep the place safe, BUT you are living in an unstable part of the world. Recent headlines showed that peaceful little Doha, never thought they would have trouble there, had a car bombing NOT very long ago.

Basically that is it. You can earn a LOT MORE money at other companies, ADA & GHC, in the Gulf. These companies are WELL worth applying to.

Hi Bloggs

Is this KA ex RAN, ex Lloyds, ex CASA, ex Oman and maybe a few others???

Bloggs dear fellow...

You tell the other side of the story...except for the money...you have described most overseas opportunities...like the old poster of the leathery faced cowhand, rolling a cigarette, with rain water pouring off his hat...and the caption "...and when I hired on with this outfit...there were a lot of things they didn't tell me!"

The inescapable truth here is AGA does not pay a decent wage and tries to disguise it with smoke and mirrors. When they want to pay so much less than any other operator around and brag on what a grand deal it is...while suggesting homeboys that are underpaid will find it a good deal. That merely indicts both places. Sounds like the Oz guys need to take a lesson from the North Sea pilots and the Gomers.

The lifestyle beats Saudi...the managerment sounds about the same...the equipment sounds better than some other places....but in the end...if you are taking a job that you know is only temporary and will not lead to retirement...then it seems a bum deal that kills any chance of settling in for the long term. If they are destined to have a constant turnover...maybe they need to revamp their program and start a "training scheme" where a young fellow gets his offshore and twin turbine experience and when fully qualified....trains his replacement....then moves on to less sunny climes.

When I was a young man I would have jumped at an opportunity like the one offered in this thread. I am pleased that the offer has been made here and hope that other potential employers will not be dissuaded by the comments here from posting other job offers on Pprune Rotorheads.

This position may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it is honest work with a respectable operator in one of the best places to live in the Middle East.

Airtoday, I thank you.

jobs avilable in Dubai
 

Sorry for the delay in replying. The boss thought I should go off and do a little work. So here is a quick reply.

NIGEL OSBORNE – Yes that KA is the man (?) you describe. If the stories are half true, I do not understand why the Australian CASA did not shred his licence when they fired him.

SASLESS – Part of the problem of this game is Oil Companies put such ridiculous requirements for copilots in their contracts. How are the young guys going to get the experience? If a ± 700 hour pilot has a DECENT basic ability and some P1 time on commercial operational flying, where he has had to make his own decisions, he will have no problem being an offshore P2 and go on to make P1. There is also this demand for the magic ATP. I have heard the oil company auditor asked the following question. If your life was in the balance and conditions were BAD who would you rather have driving the helicopter – a minimum hour ATP or a 10,000 hour CPL IR. The usual reply was –‘An ATP is standard requirement’ !!!!
I have flown with some excellent CPL IR pilots. ATP is only an exam and does not automatically create a good pilot.

RICH LEE – I don’t think I ever said ‘Do not go to Dubai’ anywhere in my post. I merely pointed out the situation as I fairly ( I think) see it. I really do not care where any body works BUT if I were looking for a job, I would like to know where I could do tours AND get more money. Your ‘name’ seems familiar. Didn’t you try the other companies and miss out, before you went to Dubai??

bloggs

Perhaps Rich Lee's name seems familiar to you for this reason.
Click here.

To: Bloggs@large Please do not be offended by my comment. It was not directed at any one person or any post in particular. Pprune Rotorheads is a veritable haven where the petty comments and attacks so prevalent in other forums are the exception rather than the rule thanks to the tireless and much appreciated efforts of the moderators in this and other Pprune Forums. Were I a pilot looking for employment, I would appreciate information regarding available positions throughout the world and would exercise due diligence in researching any situation I might consider accepting. Certainly if you know of a company with an open position I would be interested in learning about it or any fair comment regarding the pros and cons of a particular situation.

The inference implied by your question was of a nature best suited to those other forums, but in response I have never applied for employment in the United Arab Emirates. I have been offered several unsolicited positions with various companies and government authorities over the years; a few of which I have seriously considered. I have been to the U.A.E. several times for both short and extended periods (my most recent visit was as a participant in the Dubai Airshow). I honestly consider the U.A.E. one of my favorite places and one of the most vibrant and exciting places of commerce in the world. I have many close friends there - citizens and expatriates, military and civil. I have no tie to any particular company and my comment was not biased by preference or prejudice.

A BIT OF PERSPECTIVE

Any posting of a job offer, no matter what the terms, is a BRILLIANT IDEA. Everyone here has a brain and can make decisions for themselves. If we have the capacity to fly an expensive aircraft, I would argue we have the judgement necessary to look at the pros and cons of a job offer. For those who want to pursue such opportunities, awesome. For those who do not, awesome.

I would love to use my commercial rating and go out and fly for a living. However, it does not pay well. This should not be a surprise to anyone who has the intellectual capacity to pass a check ride. No matter how organized everyone is, there is only so much money in the industry and you all knew it when you chose this career.

Consider yourselves lucky. All of you have the self esteem and perserverance to do something you like everyday. My job is boring, tedious and full of people with anger issues who are in denial (which, by the way is not a river in Egypt).

Reflect on the great things all of you do everyday. Go to the pictures thread and look at what neat places and things you do everyday. It is really cool.

As a last thought, any job in Dubai is probably a better way to build your resume than how many of the contributors in this forum built theirs in the 60's.




:uhoh: :uhoh:

Thanks for the heads-up, Flying Lawyer. I enjoyed reading the posts from your link. Rich Lee has a good sense of humour as well as ATOS (all that other stuff). Loved the Brietling comment...

With regard to employment conditions in the Gulf, supply and demand surely governs what is paid - as it does everywhere else. Until supply of suitably qualified drivers dries up, employers have the capability to pay what they like - you can't hold that against them.

Of course, this is all complicated by the pilot-group factor....

Did anyone get a response from Air Today? I sent him a msg , when this was first posted , asking about the operation, flying in the middle east, and experience needed (with a summary of my experience). I didnt get a reply,anyone else, or did my msg get lost?

RB

Airtoday answered my question within hours of me emailing.:rolleyes:

also heard the next day, thanks for that dave. even though it was a thanks but no thanks. but what did i expect with only a few hindred hours and ir

:{

ROTORBOY

Many apologies. I do try to reply to all (and will send a personal message). If there is anyone else like Rotorboy who has not received a reply from me yet please have patience.
Amazingly I have had over three hundred replies to this Ad.
Some people have had a reply immediately because I have been sitting in front of the computer when their mail arrived. Other times I have been away for a few days and have been a bit overwhelmed.

That Pprune should be the number one venue for looking for pilots when you need them is now, to me, beyond dispute. I know that Flight International must be quaking in their boots with £300 plus slots for one week only.

Thank you all for the (even very negative) replies.
And many, many thanks for the positive.

Ray Diato

Airy toad,
no problem, check your PM.

Thanks

RB

Our requirements are about the same. Without the type rating those replying, who are qualified, would come down to twenty per cent. With the type rating and experience on type (212), we would have a choice from 20 out of 300. This does not mean, of course, that we would restrict future employment to those only who meet every one of our requirements.
From the 20 qualified, maybe three quarters are making inquiries for the sake of "could I have an option if I choose to leave here."
I end up with five serious contenders for one or two available positions.
Which, of course, is the aim of the game.
I hope this answers your question.

ADA...New School
 

Hey All,

Can anyone dispell a rumour that we are hearing that ADA is opening a flight school (Horizon Aviation) somewhere in Al Ain (UAE) or close to there.

Apparently a bunch of 206's, Astars and maybe one or two mediums.

or is this a rumour, yes rumour....can you imagine a rumour here:yuk: :O :ok:

Must be a rumor....or rumour....the actual helicopter to be used is the now out of production Commanche's left over from the cancelled US Army contract. Seems the sidestick controls will allow for Jhrobe wearing students to maintain their cultural identity. Primary trainers will be ex-US Army AH-1's for the same reason....front seaters will have access to the same style side stick controls.

Yes the school does exist, sat down and chatted with their GM and Deputy at the Dubai Airshow. They have a number of Bell 206BIIIs and are adding some AS350-B3s later this year or beginning of next.

Not sure if it is tied up with ADA but they have a Sheikh behind it and he seems to have a bit of money to throw at it. If you want a contact there drop me an email.

Autorotate.

Retire at 60
 

Maybe I should have started another thread for this subject but it is extremely relevant to where I began.
Abu Dhabi Aviation, in their wisdom, have decided that their pilots will retire at 60 years old.
This came as some surprise to many who were approaching this age as the UAE allows pilots over that age to continue in two pilot operations until they are 63.
Suddenly, at Aerogulf, in Dubai, I am never going to have a recruitment problem. Thank you very much Abu Dhabi.
I wish you had told me this two months ago because these people with between eleven and twenty thousand hours (mainly on type and offshore) are a Godsend to a small company..

Airytoad

So, does that mean that I have to wait another 30 years before I can apply for a job at AeroGulf???:}

Another 30 years
 

I guess it does Spunk.

Sit out there and bide your time.

Airytoad



BUT?

Age Limit.....

So long as you can toddle out to yer ride....you can fly in the USA. Why, down in the GOM...there are pilots in their 70's who have had dual hip replacements....must be something about sitting in Bell seats for two many years!

Don't get too excited yet! ... as with most things at ADA they may reviewing their age 60 decision .... ssstay t t tuned in fffolks ...

;) ;)

Logic
 

Hi Spinwing

Logic would dictate that they do not do this when they are short of pilots. To me it would be blatently obvious that if I needed people to fly my aircraft I would keep those with the most experience as long as they are fit and healthy. If Abu Dhabi find that they would prefer the younger untried types then I would be extremely grateful for their castoffs if I have space for them.

Airytoad

Hey Dave,
I was wondering if you ever did get my email regarding flying in the UAE, experince, oppertunitys general living/lifestyle questions.

Thanks

Barry
RB

Aahhhhhh Yes!

..... dare I say, you have been around long enough to know that "Logic" really has nothing to do with decision making in the UAE has it? mmmmm .... ;) :cool:

Spinwing has it right. The matter of maximum acceptable age has not yet finsihed running its course at ADA, so Airy Toad may not be getting any cast-offs yet. The final answer should be decided fairly soon.

Right Decision
 

Congratulations to ADA for making the right decision for their pilots and their company. I hear that they are going to retain those approaching sixty. Maybe not the best news for us who could have benefitted from their experience and skill but the right decision for everyone else. I applaud you for your eventual common sense.

Airy Toad

Dangerous Place
 

There are, and have been, many dangerous places on earth. Dubai is not one of them. It is a safe haven for people of all nationalities.

In the last two months I have offered work to two Americans and have gone through all of the lengthy paperwork involved; and have them say (at the last minute) "It's too dangerous in the Middle East, I'm not coming".

"Stay in New York or LA and get mugged or shot."

I, now, am looking for a good and honest helicopter pilot who wants to live and work in one of the better places on this planet.

Replies to [email protected]

Dave

Airtoday, how about providing a little balance in your commentaries? A "safe haven?" Holy Exageration, Batman! I've spent some time in the middle-east, and I have to say the New York is MUCH safer. Granted, with large populations you have to conduct yourself with a degree of care, as with ANY city (meaning, use your "street smarts" when in town). There are threats in EVERY environment, but there are MORE threats to Westerners in your neck of the woods than in other areas. To claim otherwise is ignorant or at least irresponsible. There are other opportunities for pilots with equal pay and quality of life issues, so why work for you? With increased risk, there should be increased pay; however, it seems that the folks with experience in your area indicate that is just one of many items that seems lacking. You need to package your adventures in employment opportunities in a more accurate light. That way, the candidate knows exactly what they are getting into and both will be happy (and put some more meat on the table you cheap @#$%^&*). :}

RDRickster.. Like many people I think you have formed your opinion of Dubai and the UAE based on the constant garbage broadcast on your wonderfully impartial TV news stations.

I live both in Dubai and the UK and am in the process of moving to Dubai full time with my family. From my personal experience I feel Dubai is the safest places I have ever visited. Crime is not an issue, drugs and violence do not seem to exist. The people are friendly and generally helpful. I can leave my car unlocked with my mobile phone on the seat while I go into a shopping centre without the worry of it being stolen. Tell me if there is anywhere in the US that you can do that? I have been to New York and there is just no comparison, Dubai is so much safer.

When we announced to our friends and family that we were moving out to Dubai, the ignorant people said "Oh don't they make the women wear head scarves and walk three paces behind the men!" The people who have been there or had done any research said "I wish we were coming with you"

Why do people love bashing the Middle East? Maybe they are just looking to blame some other part of the world for the problems in there own country?

As for working in Dubai, if I had an ATPL/CPL and the relevant qualifications I would love to...

Sounds interesting working in the middle east, there are problems everywhere, good weather etc. I just wish i could get an answer to my email regarding opportunities:* I know you may be busy or already have your people just a quick note to say #@*** off fatso will do.:8