hi

see this way....

under FAA, for you to start you CFI (certified flight insctructor) trainning , must at least, more than 18year old and a commercial certificate (see § 61.183 Eligibility requirements )
so, technally, and in reallity, a person, can after finished is commercial (intrument ratting normally goes with a CFII , certified flight intreument instructor) start a instrcutor course, and after that, start working as a flight instructor

in fact, this is the way, to build hours to a better job (plane guy's go the same route...) ou someone know's a better (with better means commercial operation, payment... etc..) ??

ok, maybe this put's the question, "his this fresh instructors (when associatesd to low timer's in helis) good instructors... ?? "
that i think will have many opinions.... and different ones... :O

but if you look, that all high time pilots (experienced ones) plus with an instructor rating prefer (mayority) to work commercial, instead of instructiong... (who blame thems .... ) you will see, that right now, the "system" for Civilian Starting 0 hours Heli-Pilots, to gain experience (hours) is to start instructing (whennever they are good pilots and / or good instrucors)

(the unique requiremnt that i'm remebering now, for instructing, is the SFAR 73 or something like that, expecifically for robinson instruction, that requieres at least 200hrs of helicopets with some (can find the sfar, if you want..) in a R22 or R44....


in europe, with JAA, this is a little more difficult, because the requirements of hours/experience is a little different...

what i see, with this possible chance, is that "maybe" there was some "pressure", because, for one side the difficult so low timers/fresh finishers to build up hours in com.ops other than flying instruction, since the other side, is that most experienced pilots (or when arrive to a more or less experienced level) "jump" to com.ops...

but, as many other things with JAA (now EASA, i think, or something like that..) it will take time, to be done...

meanwhile, to be a instructor under JAA, you will be required to a level of experience , that if you have, "maybe you don't want to be a instructor in fisrt place.."

this is a resume, of my point of view, how the things in flight instructiont/build experience go.... i'm NOT entering in the discussion if it is good or not....

and if you know, other ways to go around (build experience thing)
i think that will be many interestd in...

sorry my english...
cheers

Rotary Instructors - a question regarding unremunerated FIs
 

Know this one's been done a lot on the instructors & private pilots forum, but I'm curious as to whether it goes on in the rotary world:

Are, because of inability to get a class one medical, (or any other reasons), there any rotary instructors out there who instruct unremunerated, just because it's their ambition?

This goes on in the fixed wing world, but with the expense of rotary training, does it ever go on in this one?

Any input would be interesting

Well, I'm just about making enough to cover expenses of getting to the airfield(s), Class 1 medicals etc. So not quite unrenumerated...and might pick up the future.

So, are you saying that in the UK, somebody without a valid licence or qualification can teach??

In Oz, if you aren't qualified, you don't do it. Somebody might do a little unofficial instruction, but the recipient can't log the time and it wouldn't count towards the hours, and if found out it would be big trouble.

How do your fixed-wing people get away with it??

you don't need a class 1 medical, to give instruction... plus, this doens't mean that you aren't qualified....

tottaly unrenumerated, don't know, but like Whirlybird said, know a few....

Well, it's an option that I have been considering. The situation in the UK is weird. You do still need to have the proper instructor training and qualifications but as I understand it, you can instruct without a Class 1 medical if you do so unremunerated.

Ascend: Oz may be different but then I'd have no difficulty getting an Australian Class 1 anyway so for me the problem wouldn't arise.

I love flying and I also love teaching, so it would make sense from that point of view, if not from an economic one. Having been lucky and fortunate enough to have been flying helicopters for ten years, it would be really nice to give something back. Plus, of course, one of the best ways to continue to learn and improve your own skills at doing something is to teach it.

Two reasons that would make me reluctant to do so - firstly, would there be insurance implications, and secondly I wouldn't want to take work away from other instructors like Whirly who are working hard to make a living out of it.

Still looking for options though - I've got a couple of ideas that I'm working on at the moment, so I too would be interested in experiences from anyone in a similar situation.

What's your own position, G_STRING ?

The situtation in the UK is that you need a CPL in order to accept remuneration (ie be paid). To get a CPL, you need a Class 1 medical. However, you can be an instructor if you demonstrate CPL knowledge (ie do the ground exams) and do the FI course. But you can't be paid. Make sense? Don't ask! :confused:

Grainger,
Do what you want to do. I only ever planned to instruct part time; the day job is OK, pays better, and isn't weather and medical dependent. I'd like to do a little more than break even, but breaking even is OK; I can survive. I just can't afford to keep paying to fly helicopters. But I've had at least one instructor get annoyed at me for taking the work from people who need to do it fulltime...the words "taking the bread out of my mouth" were used, honestly. Is it my fault he gave up his other job, before he knew that he could make a living from instructing? I work 7 day weeks sometimes, but it's my choice. Anyway, I keep quiet now. So, Grainger and anyone else, if you want to do unpaid instructing, good luck to you. :ok: But I'd suggest you keep very very quiet about it to your colleagues.

Now, I've gone and opened up that whole can of worms again, haven't I? :(

Instructing can be great when you get a motivated student with some talent but lets face it for new pilots you spend loads of cash to fly for a living, and then what happens you sit there and watch someone else fly torture or what.
I have been doing it for about 2 years some days it's great some days it's not, doing some other flying I think is a must else you are going to get bored.
Just a quicky how meny peeps teach engine offs to the ground?

Or some companies will pay you as an admin assistant / toilet cleaner, pay always seems to reflect hours flown (can't think why)....

I am sure that there are many good 250 hr pilots who have been trained by GOOD instructors BUT I still have a problem with the concept that a 250 (+50??) hr pilot will have the background and the REAL COMMERCIAL OPERATING experience to be able to pass on to a new chum the tricks of the trade. Heli ops arn't like fixed wing ops.

As probably all of the "high time" Instructors reading this might attest teaching a new chum how to keep it the "right way up" is the the easier (?) bit .... then you really have to set the "this will keep you alive and in one piece" processes in place .... and that is where the years of experience come into it.

:ooh: :oh: :ok:

Good luck all the same ....

Engine Offs to the ground are a must, they are part of the sylabus and not anly that they are the most important part of a real engine failure scenario. What is the point of carrying out a fantastic auto entry, Mayday call, and carry out all the tricks of the trade if you do not know how to land. There should be some safety requirment built into the training so i will not do engine offs in less than 10 kts of wind.
I f there are any doubts about personal competency then see your chief pilot ar instructor and go and practice some for half an hour.

P.S. expect the unexpected from you students.:\

I had a great time instructing. It was my first job after completing my training. It makes life easier if you are flying in Arizona though!

If you are going to instruct, make sure you put the same level of commitment into it as you would into any other job - your student deserves it and it may save his life to have been taught by someone who gave their best every time.

Instructing taught me alot about the aircraft and about my ability to deconstruct a manoeuvre to help teach it.

About full down autos - In the States when I was there, all autos were taught to a power recovery hover. When I came to do them to the surface I had no problem with the last 3 feet!

I would ask the question - is it really necessary to push your luck each time you do it? With small, piston types, as long as you arrive at 3 feet with very little forward airspeed and lots of rrpm you will walk away - a good day!

Grainger.

I'm in the uneviable position of really wanting to become a career instructor, but can't get the illusive class 1 medical.

I feel similar to you in that I love flying helis (still an amazing feeling), have been hourbuilding, and would love to 'put something back' into the system.

I'd be quite happy to do it the way Whirly suggests; CPL writtens, FI course, and class 2 (Thanks by the way Whirly, for your information), but no remuneration.

But again, same as yourself, would be worried about how this would be percieved. Obviously, you could keep it quiet from other instructors, but the SCHOOL would need to know.

What sort of a view would they take on this. (Any heli schools out there with an opinion on this one)??

G_STRING

Following on from last question - re rotary instructors...
 

Following on from my 'instructors - a question...' post.

How old is 'too old', when it comes to starting a career as a rotary instructor? I'm 40 now, & imagine, (medical permitting), it would take a few years to get through the CPL and the FI course.

REALLY want to do this, so input much appreciated

G_STRING

preposterous!
 

What has the world come to? We're afraid to donate our time to our sport/hobby/vocation because of implied criticism by our peers? Balderdash, I say!

If a doctor donates his time to indigenous medical services, at home or abroad, does he get flak from other doctors who were hoping to someday get around to doctoring the part of the world they haven't done yet? If a teacher donates time to educating the disabled, do they get crank phone calls from other teachers?

If you want to fly, and the idiotic bureaucratic irrelevant government's arbitrary restrictions prevent you from receiving remuneration, then for God's sake, FLY! Let the unioneers and whiners go after the government, instead--it is, after all, the government's fault/error/irrelevancy/stupidity that created the problem with how we pursue life and liberty!!!

Dave
Donating Flt Instruction Any Time I Want To!

definitely too old
 

Ooops, 40, well now, you know, we all have to be established in our careers by age 25 in order to get ahead and be of any use . . . just look at all the employment fallout from the dot.com industry, all those old folks fired at 30 because they were obsolete.

Less tongue in cheek: I got tired of f/w and seriously moved into rotary a couple of years ago. Decided to take it seriously and moved on up to Flight Instructor this summer, almost instantaneously took a position as Chief Flight Instructor for a fair-sized school in Florida. Soon CFII-H. But you can't be doing this sort of thing when you get old, quite improper, takes the money out of REAL workers' mouths, etc.

Oh, by the way, I recently turned 66. And I do this for fun (although they ALSO pay me fairly well), having already made retirement in the corporate f/w jet world.

Pa 42

Thanks for the lighthearted, (and serious!) reply. Good to know that you did what you did WHEN you wanted to do it.

Made good reading, and made me feel a hell of a lot better

Thanks

G_STRING,

I was older than you before I ever considered setting foot inside a helicopter...don't ask by how much; haven't you noticed that this lady NEVER gives away her age. ;) But those who've met me know that I'm not the sweet young thing I sometimes pretend to be. :{ This isn't a second career for me; it's about the sixth! There are no age limits for instructing, so long as you can pass medicals...and Class 1 if you want to be paid. And in practice it doesn't seem to be an issue in the instructing world. I'm planning on carry on till I'm 90...so long as I can still climb into a helicopter. You, my friend, are just a kid...so stop worrying. And I agree with pa42; who cares what anyone else thinks; if you want to instruct, go for it!

Hey G-STRING; I'm 43 now and don't see that as any sort of impediment. At least twenty good years in me yet and I hope many more than that !

Let me ask you a question: how old will you be in five years' time if you don't follow your dream of instructing ? That's right: the same.

Thanks very much for all your responses - Whirly, you sound a rather formidable and determine lady, all good luck to you.

Feel rather better after reading the posts, but the one thing I'm really curious about, (as I said earlier), is how will the SCHOOLS themselves react to an instructor minus a class 1 medical?

I originally wanted to instruct in the fixed wing world, where this sort of thing is, if not common, MORE common I'm sure, than the rotary world.

However, after introducting myself to helicopters, I'm completely hooked, and know that this is what I want.

So, if there are any schools / proprietors, etc.. out there reading this, please give me your input!

Thanks

Formidable? Moi? I'm not big enough to be formidable. 5ft 2ins people can't be formidable; it doesn't work. :confused: Determined? I guess so. If I want something I leave no stone unturned. I think I was probably a terrier in a past life. :)

Anyway, I can't see the schools caring about whether you've got a Class 1 medical or not. After all, until quite recently rotary instructors just got 200 hours and did an FI course. I missed that route by about a year. And I don't think they had Class 1s. I don't know what happens to the ones now with grandfather rights, and there are loads around.

G-STRING, what part of Wales are you in? Just curious, that's all.

Whirly

Caerphilly area originally, but I move around a lot! now living Bournemouth area, so I suppose I should edit my profile!

G_STRING

Well G-STRING, they seem to be desperate for rotary instructors down on the south coast; I keep seeing ads. I doubt if they'll give a damn what sort of medical or qualifications you've got, so long as it keeps the CAA happy. And instructors in the north can't afford to move down there, so you can probably take your pick of schools. I'll probably be getting quite jealous of all the work you have in a couple of years. ;)

Whirly

Thanks for your input on this subject. On the subject of yourself, how long did it take you, start to finish, to get your rotary FI? You state yourself that you were older than I was when you started - did you find this a problem, or wasn't it an issue?

Lastly, did you find the course easy, hard, or somewhere in the middle!

G-STRING,

When I decided to get a CPL and FI rating, everyone seemed really surprised. I thought that was because of my age; I mean, it did seem kinda silly in the normal way one looks at things to be spending all that money at that age. I then discovered that my age wasn't even an issue; they were surprised because I'm female! There were quite a few guys in their late 30s, 40s, and older considering it, and no-one turned a hair. So I don't think it'll be an issue.

Timescale...
I didn't hurry that much, because I planned for it all to be fun, and I also had to earn a living at the same time. OTOH, I didn't think I should waste too many years. So...
Sept 1999 - June 2000 PPL(H)
Hourbuilding, aka fun flying, until Feb 2001
Feb 2001 - June 2001 CPL(H) ground exams by self study and at Bristol Ground School
More fun flying...er, I mean hour building.
Sept - Nov 2001 CPL(H) flying course
2002 - more hour building, mainly on two trips, to US and Russia
Jan/Feb 2003 - FI course, finally passing it in April...long story.

I found everything enjoyable but reasonably challenging, except the CPL ground exams which were a huge amount of work and at least 50% boring, and the FI course which was the hardest thing I've ever done. :( There are threads about a lot of it; they might still be around if you do a search. After the FI course, I decided to stop living my life on PPRuNe - no more diary-type threads!

Instructing un-renumerated
 

I once did an AS350 endorsement for a case of Cascade Beer!!

No money - but the beer tasted better.

"Mates rates".

Does that count?

:ok:

My two cents.
Difficult to tell. For an instructor rating I would think, that the flying part is not that important. Theory and teaching experience would be more important. A comparision of the subjects a new CFI has to learn would probably be more interesting, than just comparing the fligth hours required.
How much ADM and risk management is covered, or teaching methods and so on. A good instructor must be a good teacher, not necessarily the best pilot. But he should know how to save the day for everybody.

:rolleyes:

I don't know about better, but you also have to take into account that you have less hours when you can start the FAA CFI compared to the JAR......
Fatigue

Safety in aviation has reached a standard, where dicussions which break it down to "how many hours does your instructor have" are useless. JAR has yet to prove that it is saver then any other regulation. I have flown with pilots which were trained under JAR and they scared the s**** out of me. They fly as happy VFR into IMC as "FAR" pilots. Common sense you do not get by regulations, neither by an instructor that has 50 hours more. It is the attitude towards flying you learn during your flight training that makes the difference. I had hardcore european instructors (in the sense that they where absolutely sure that the US license is worth less) and US instructors and some even had both. And from my humble point of view, the best instructors where those that acctualy liked their job. Their had more knowledge and a better attitude then those who where just building hours. And that goes for both worlds.

It was not my intention to pick on the hours builder. Most of them try to do a good job and a lot of them like instructing. Every pilot wants to move up to something bigger. To do that you have to build hours. Doing it as an instructor is not bad. Flying sightseeing tours probably gives you way less experience in the same number of hours.
For a pilot in the US it is often the only possibility to build hours. For a 135 operation you need a minimum of 500 hours. There aren't a lot of 91 jobs around. The insurances make it even more difficult to find a job.

It is not important how many hours the new instructor had or who much time the instructor course took. It is what he learned and what attitude he has towards flying and towards his students. And there are those things, that you can't learn in hundred years which make the difference between an good and an excellent instructor.

Yup, now it is getting interesting.
Acctualy I am never realy serious, life is to short.
But here it comes. I will try again to explain what I mean. But reading the replies, I am not realy good at it.

The 100h instructor who is to afraid to let go of the controls should never have passed the test anyway - or nowhere. You do not become a CFI only by flying some fixed number of hours. That would be completely the wrong way. You have to pass a few test after all.

The 10'000h pilot that teaches the first time, is not very good at teaching either. But that is what makes the difference. Beeing a good teacher is what counts. You can train for 10, 30 or 50 flight hours to become an instructor. Students will surprise you anyway. Therefore you need a good knowledge about the learning process. But that is normaly learned during ground school.

All I wanted to make clear is, that comparing required flight hours does not say much about the quality of an instructor course. I bet there are still corners in this world, which have higher required flight hours then the US, but ADM, CRM, fundamentals of instruction and risk management are not covered during those instructor courses, but are subjects which are required by the FAA. I believe, that those points are much more important then 50 hours more of flight time. And you need to compare the ground school, too.

I had my share of instructors that wanted to pass their experience on. Most of the time it scared the s*** out of me and one almost killed me and one almost wrecked the ship. I prefer the calm instructor, who goes by the book and shows me different techniques which are well accepted. But that is what you learn during any instructor course, or at least should learn.

By the way, the whole flight training did not change a lot since the WWII. Thanks to the way regulations are made, that will not change soon, but I believe we could train pilots in less hours to higher standards, just by changing the way of teaching.
Had a discussion once with Shawn Coyle about strategie of control. Very interesting. Much more than picking on US-CFI's because they have less hours
;-)))))

Oh FITS is a good source, too.

Now I'm off to the beach
:E

strategy of control?
 

Don't stop now, expand on that concept. Not a US buzzphrase; is it pilot control input strategy, or administrative instructor-pilot obedience training? Is there a text? I don't recall seeing the words in Cyc/Coll (too lazy to reread the book looking for this new term).

Expound. Eager minds salivate for wisdom even as we click . . .

Ha, gotcha. Now you are hooked. Knew it would work. Mention somebody famous and everybody jumps to attention.
Once upon a time I lost a bet to Shawn Coyle. Read the book and you know why. Strategie of control is not in the book, it was just a discussion while I paid my dept. Ask him.
After that thread, I do not believe, that I am able to explain that concept.
sniff - nobody understands me anyway

rather go to the beach

:uhoh: :{ :ugh:


:zzz:

Why? Anyone will allow the testing officer to take the controls. It doesn't mean that he will allow a student the same freedom.

Instuctors Ratings
 

Just a post to see what the general consensus is on when instructors ratings should be issued. I personally am a big believer that IR's should not be issued to pilots with less than 3000 hrstt. Though pilots can be taught the basics of teaching helicopter flight and emergency procedures it doesn't seem to be a substantial benchmark for someone who is paying $35,000+ to get their lisence. Thoughts everybody?

The number of 'Hours' one has is no measure of 'ability'.

Take a 'test' get 'qualified'

QED :)

Up & Away,
All the 'ability' in the world doesn't account for 'experience'. As I said, you can be taught how to be an instructor & pass the test but I think that with less than 3000 hrs your personal learning curve is still a bit too steep to be giving others what they are paying for. It's a lot of money to pay & you want the best benefit of teaching ability & experience to get the most out of it.

3000 hours TT might be a little too high, something like 1000 TT benchmark is more achievable. One must remember that most instructor jobs are seen as a stepping ladder in the industry. I agree that a 250 hours TT instructor does not have the ability to impart serious experience onto a newbie.
So far, the CASA system (OZ) is the only one asking for a higher minimum TT hours before an IR can be issued. I have flown with so called experienced pilots trained by other countries, and I will trust an Aussie before any others. (1500 hours below)
I had the privilege to fly with IR's with 5000 + hours TT to 15000+ hours TT and believe me EXPERIENCE counts...:D

Out of interest, at what sort of experience level can you become an instructor in the military in Oz and other countries? What would be the average experience of a military instructor? Don't want to start the big military vs civilian thing, just interested.

In Oz you can't get a rotary instructor rating with less than 400 hours.

Personally I had 1100 hours when I did mine and I reckon that was only just enough. As any instructor knows, you're learning heaps as well as the student.

Bellfest, with your reference to value for money, would you be willing to pay more for a more experienced instructor?

I am a low time instructor and I would be the first to admit that experience counts for a great deal. Still, a newbie instructor can only operate under the supervision of a grade 2 or higher (here in RSA anyway), who must fly a check ride with the student at least every 10 hours. The argument in favour of low time instructors is that they remember better learning to fly themselves, and tend to be more enthusiastic and thorough in their briefings (if anything we 'over-instruct' I am told). The final decision should rest with the student, I would think, and coyote makes a good point about cost. Lastly, without instructing, how do I get to be a high time pilot?