A while back i thought about doing the ppl and hour building at HAI in the states, then coming back and doing distance learning at Oxford and then their CPL add on.
I figured that would be about:-
20k at HAI
2.5k OAT distance Learning
8K OAT CPL add on plus Vat I expect.
Don't know if this is possible or not though, and as said before there's the other costs while abroad.

helicam, is that 250 hours total time? i was under the impression in the uk it was 250 hours after a certain point. Not really sure where to look though tried the CAA website but its not exactly user friendly.

I am one of the people who went over to the states on a j-1 visa and are now working as a flight instructor.

For insurance some schools require their instructors to have 300 hours and some only 200.

The school I work for requires any pilots they train to have only 200 to be a CFI but if they are hiring from outside there own School they require 300.

While I have do not have a JAA certificate, I am more than happy with the standard of my training, and the people I have spoke to say there is not much real word difference between the FAA Vs JAA if you go to a good school.

Give me a shout if you have any questions.

PhilJ,

It is 250 total time at which the instructor's course can be commenced..

The information is to be found in LASORS; if you haven't got a copy, then get it. Costs about £10 from various avaition suppliers or you can download it and print it for free (aside from the cost of the paper, ink and download time).

Most people I have spoken to believe that it is best to do your training in the country in which you wish to work. Also be aware of any FAA conversion costs in the UK.

Cheers

Whirlygig

As whirlygig said 250 hours total time as per Lasors. Working in the states is all very well and good fun, I did it for two years but was shown the door when my J1 Visa expired. I know when you get home its tough finding a job.

I only found work because I had done my PPL(h) in the U.K because my face was known. In my experience the Chaps who have conducted training in the U.K always find work over here first. I have a drawer full of ex HAI students C.Vs. Its not that I have anything against them but when someone has invested 250 hours in your school you want to give them something back.

Every single person that I know who has conducted a UK CPL(H) and FIR rating in England has found work as an instructor in this country.

helicam,

I take it you run a training school in the uk? How much would it cost to train from scratch based on minimums inc vat to FIR?

My ambition is to get into offshore/utility work and it seemed the J-1 visa would be a good way to gain experience quickly, although it does beg the question where the turbine time comes from.

More generally, do employers who are not training establishments favour people who have trained in the uk? of those that train abroad does the specific school or location make any difference. For example would Oregon or Florida make a difference.

PhilJ,

Whilst I accept that my name is not Helicam, I’m sure he won’t mind me butting in.

From zero to FI(R).

Based on the following rates (from the website of a reputable school in the South)
R22 training £261.44, R22 Self Fly Hire (for hour building) £202.69.

PPL(H) 45 hours = £ 11.764.80
Medical (Class 1) = £480.00
- you might as well get Class 1 now ‘cos if you fail, you ain’t gonna do it.
PPL(H) Licence issue from CAA £148.00
Exams (8no.) £280.00
Studying materials (books , equipment, charts etc) £150.00

Hour building – a further 110 hours at £202.69 each = £22,259.90

CPL(H) 30 hours @ £261.44 = £ 7,843.20.
Groundschool (say) £2,000
Other CAA costs which I am not too sure about.

Hour building to instructor level = 65 hours @ £202.69 = 13,174.85

Instructor course = 35 hours @ £261.44 = 9,150.40 plus licencing costs and study materials.

OK – total = £67,251.15 plus those bits I am not too sure of, say £70k.

Of course, very, very few people ever do it in the minima allowed – reckon on 20% increase. Of course, these are for R22. You would be best to get some other ratings and turbine.

All this information is freely available on the internet – you are going to have to do your research and make your decisions based on your circumstances and ambitions. Try talking to few schools and/or operators.

Cheers

Whirlygig

dont mind who replies the more the merrier!

I had costed it at a local place up here to be around £47K to commercial (hadn't costed the FIR). HAI have the cost at around $50 plus exams but leaving aside the JAA it would be possible to do FAA CFII with mountain external load etc for $45 and then (if the blurb is true) work for a year to get up to about a 1000 hours.

Bearing in mind i intend to move to australia after this Im not sure how beneficial for me the JAA route is. However as I want to work offshore there is a good chance i will end up working tours and i'm having difficulty finding out what the employers actually prefer. The JAA would provide a safety net though for working in Europe if my visa application fails. I am very much keeping my options open at the minute.

What opportunities are there for low hour pilots in the uk who are not instructors?

Square root of diddly-squat.

At the moment.

But the employment situation, as with many things, is cyclical (no pun intended). Could well be on the up by the time you've a CPL. But then again...?

Cheers

Whirlygig

There are a number of things to consider. Will the school in the USA employ you as a CFI when you have completed your course with them? I have heard that HAI employ only one in ten of their new CFI's. I certainly get lots of resumes from CFIs who are not placed by their school. Having said that if you do get placed you should get around 1,000 hours a year from a good school.

It's all about experience and hours. As said in previous posts you are almost unemployable with low hours. If you have 1 or 2,000 hours you are very employable. All of your helo flying in the USA counts towards a JAA licence despite what some people are suggesting. The FAA licence is an ICAO licence.

Costing is of primary importance to many people. Do the UK costs include VAT, landings etc? Any extras? To suggest that it is cheaper in the UK, even after accommodation costs are included is simply not true. The J1 visa is a good opportunity to live and work in the USA gaining those valuable hours.

Finally anyone suggesting that the training in the USA is an inferior product probably have their own agenda. Don't be afraid to question the record of the school and do speak to ex-students about their experiences. Any school that does not supply that information when requested should probably be avoided.

I have operated under both systems so I feel qualified to comment. I am not hiding my interest in this subject. My website is listed on the message.

Regards,

Chopperpilot47

Chopperpilot47,

My figures most certainly did include landing fees and VAT. The ex-vat rate & ex-landing rate for training and SFH were £210.00 and £160.00 per hour with landing fee at £12.50.

Since I have got a PPL and am currently hour-building, I am fairly certain of my costs to date but still unsure as to what future costs could bite me on the bum later on!!

For everyone,

Just to nail my colours to the mast - I did my PPL(H) in the UK on a S300. Plan to hour build in UK and South Africa. CPL in UK. This is because the UK is where I wish to work - simple as that.

Cheers

Whirlygig

PS - I have no connection with the school whose prices I quoted but I have heard they have a good reputation so my emphasis here was also on quality instruction which MIGHT not be the cheapest.

I'm currrently training at HAI. The standard of their training is extremely high both FAA and JAA.

They want their students to pass with high grades and that also counts for FAA students.

European flight schools always like to say that FAA is very easy. Well the helicopter is the same and you will have to fly it. So 40-60 hours of training for your PPL. The theory part might be a bit easier but don't forget you have to take an oral exam as well, and the examiner will find your weak spots. So basically you still have to study a lot.

The total costs won't differ much from the UK but, you fly more in a shorter period of time and when you do the CFI route you will fly about a 1000-1200 hours in 24 months.

If you want to go to Australia I wouldn't get a JAA license. As you said yourself hours are more important and converting FAA->CASA is the same as JAA->CASA.

The last note to FAA versus JAA. When pilots are trained so bad in the US, why is the accident rate compared to Europe so low............

I agree wholeheartedly with the comments about the quality of the FAA licence. There are over 30,000 licenced helicopter pilots in the USA with about 25,000 of them with professional licences. I really think that speaks for itself.

Chopperpilot47

I agree. I took my PPl in the UK and then did all the FAA stuff at HAI. Having qualified, I am now working in the US in a school flying brand new helciopters and with over 600 hrs will probably end up with over 1000 by the time the J1 is over.
Don't let cynics tell you that HAI is all marketing hype - actually, they are very forthright and honest, and try hard not to be misleading in any way.
Of course HAI only employ one in every 10 students - how many ships do you think they have? (they do have 70 odd students at any one time.) At least HAI isn't promising anyone any jobs. They do help you find one though.

If you are considering doing the JAA at HAI concider this - after 14? months you'll have a frozen JAA ATPL and only 135 hours of flight time. When you return to the UK what job can you get - squat. You don't even have the QFI. Why not go to the US, do the FAA right through to CFII, work for a year and return to the UK if you wish and convert to JAA if you want. At least you'll have the 1000 hours.

Having done FAA and JAA I consider there to be little difference - FAA radio work is a little less strict - but apart from that you'll be just as good an instructor doing the FAA route.
Job opportunities are actually pretty good in the US for CFI's as well - and not in schools where you'll only fly 2 hours a week either.

With all the vietnam pilots retiring there is a massive demand for helo pilots in the US and so the interest and student numbers are really high. Therefore demand for CFI's is also high, and the hours at each school pretty good for the most part.

Went to an FAA safety seminar last night and they talked about how the FAA and the CAA/JAA are all in negotiations for a "world license" which means that in not too distant a future any license will do - FAA or JAA in any country - and the only ones who will be cheesed off at that are the ones that paid the most for it......ie: not the FAA ones.

Finally there is absolutely no way anyone can say that living and studying in the UK will work out cheaper than in the US. It is simply a falicy. Living costs etc are extremely cheap, fuel is cheap and training is half the cost in the UK. Coupled with that the fact that the weather is never really too poor to fly - your training time is shortened massivly - how many UK schools are flight training for 340 days of the year - None. At this time of year most are usually fog bound till noon, and then the rain sets in.:\

PhilJ,

Having done my PPL(H) in the U.K, I did a lot of research into where was the best and most cost effective place to do my APTL(H).
I unfortunately came to 2 conflicting conclusions...
1. As the industry in the U.K. is so insular I would have better contacts and therefore better job prospects if I chose to continue my training in the U.K.
2. The overall training cost is considerably less outside of the U.K.

I chose to come over to the states because after talking to many in the industry they said that HAI was, along with a couple in the U.K. , one of the best schools around and nowhere in the U.K. could match their prices.

Since arriving my original plan of going back to the U.K ASAP has had to be changed due to the fact that nowhere seems to want to employ newly qualified commercial pilots. I am therefore now doing the FAA commercial/instructors course in order to build hours before heading home. My fear of not getting my face known to potential UK employers has subsided somewhat as I
am now at a school that has a truely international reach.
On the whole graduates do not find much trouble finding work.

In reply to your JAA vs FAA - 2 different systems that produce the same result- i.e if the level of instruction and final exam is good then you will become a good pilot.

Hope that helps,
Barotrauma.

One of the reasons the US is less expensive is that the dollar continues to fall relative to other foreign currencies. Look at the conversion rate of the euro to the dollar 2.5 years ago and you will see you can buy close to 50% more dollars with your euro. The pound has also appreciated but not as much.

Another thing you may want to consider is that you will not be able to get the J-1 visa if you already hold a professional licence. This tripped me up as I went to Australia and got my CPL. Then returned to UK to get a PPL plus build a few hours whilst studying for ATPL exams with BGS. I am now in USA doing FAA I/R and hours building to 250. I will then return to the UK to do the Instructor rating as I can't get the J-1 work visa in the USA. I am hoping I have a better chance of employment if I do the FI back in the UK, which is where I want to work.

I wish I had gone to HAI in the first place and done the full FAA/JAA course, got my FAA CFII and worked for a year as an instructor and come home with 1000 hours. There does seem to be good opportunities for fresh CFI(I) out here.

Getting work in Australia will be very difficult. The Oz visa is not on a plate either.

The reason I went to Australia in the first place is because my girlfreind wanted to go there and not to the USA. I am no longer with that girlfreind. Take my advise - do it alone!!!

If you're loaded then do PPL to CPL + FI in the UK with a busy and reputable school. If your going to scrape everything you have together to do it then HAI looks the best way to me.

Good luck.

hi
I am currently training in New Zealand for my CPL(H), the reason i came here was simple, its somewhere i've allways wanted to come and second the cost of the training over here is far less than in the UK.
I will end up by the end of jan with a full CPL(H) @ 150hrs, and i will have mountain, sling and night ratings on the lisence which as i understand it if you train in the UK you will not.
Also if you want to work in OZ they do not have any cross over exams for the lisence from NZ due to the trans-tazman agreement.
Training here including living for 9 months will have cost me in the region of £30-35k, and when you consider that £24K of that is course fees i dont think its too bad a deal.

Dont get too hung up on the whole usa Vs UK thing, sometimes you need to think more laterally.

As for employment the only way i can see to do it is to get your ATPL(H) one way or another and go to the states to find work, its what i am going to do..

Hi

This is for Whirlygig or Helicam or anyone elae who knows. This is on a similar thread.

I am a 500 hour instructor on the old CAA system i.e. no commercial licence. Nobody wants me:( do you think it worth going to the states to get my CPL and then coming back?

I m biased as trained in US... and sure if you search my previous posts on the subject you ll see my views...

I have FAA CPL(H) - no work and low hours but that's down to not having the £££ or $$$ to hit the IR or CFI... could recently have walked into a job if I d had the CFI - with less than 250 hrs. And don't have a problem flying in either country... the controls work just the same and it ll hurt just as much if I get it wrong whatever side of the pond I m flying!

But without being big headed - some of the UK trained pilots are frightening... but then some of the FAA one have been a little worrying...

However if the FAA test is so easy - how come I know of people who fail it yet are deamed competent in the UK? Both PPL and CPL...

What I will say though is I spent less on my CPL than several people spent on their PPL by doing it in the US and that includes my rent/airfare/alcohol/car hire/alcohol/food/alcohol...

Oh and last but not least when I started back in late 1996 I called/faxed/email every school I could find - 50 odd in the US - 49 responed, 30 odd in the UK - 2 responded.... customer service still matters to some people...

PW

Hencloud,

Your vote of confidence is awfully sweet but...er.... I'm not quite sure what advice I could give you in that I am still an hour-building PPL.

Perhaps my very good friend Whirlybird might be able to help here?

Cheers

Whirlygig

Whirlygig and hencloud,

I wish I knew. There are no certainties in this industry. Is it worth spending another shedload of money? It might be, but I really have no idea. :confused: :confused: :confused:

Come to the US, where you train at half the cost, take the chance. Why? Because that's the way the world works. You don't get more for your hard earned money in Eurpoe or the UK, you just pay more.

Don't believe the myth that an FAA test is not a real test. Half the flying machines on the planet are being used daily by we "substandard" pilots, at accident rates that are at least the same as Europe and the UK. There is a reason why the US has twice the number of hours, pilots and aircraft per unit population.

I can't understand why someone in the UK would balk at the idea of living in a hotel in Florida for 1.5 years with like minded people, get a whole slew of flying certificates, stand in the running for CFI jobs in the US, and still pay half what it would cost in the UK!

You want guarantees in your career? Learn to be an Undertaker, there is always work. You want to be a professional pilot? Take the plunge! SASless and I volunteered for Vietnam as the price we paid for pilot training. 18 months in Vero Beach is a lot more to my current liking!

Instruction in the US could be equally good compared to f.e. the UK but it's also a fact that the FAA will allow schools and instructors who won't do a good job. I'm sure that Bell school provides very good quality of instruction but then it's starting to cost.

You shouldn't lump everyone together but there is an attitude of "I just want to build my hours" among many US CFI's. Being able to work as an instructor in the US is of course valuable but do keep in mind that you are not welcome in the US anymore when you want to continue your career. A 1000 hours of instruction given is great but not necessarily your ticket (after you have converted to JAR of course) to commercial work in Europe.

>>Oh and last but not least when I started back in late 1996 I called/faxed/email every school I could find - 50 odd in the US - 49 responed, 30 odd in the UK - 2 responded.... customer service still matters to some people...>>

I've found this same thing to be true while contacting schools during the last year and a half. The UK schools have been notoriously poor at responding to my inquiries. I expect some sort of response no matter what it might be.

I did my JAA training at HAI as well and am currently finishing my FAA commercial rating at another school. I found that HAI is comparatively much more professional and dedicated to their students. I can't speak for the FAA side yet, but the JAA students have reserved aircraft and never have problems getting a ship. I'm told they're doing the same with the CFI students now as well, so I guess it's only those FAA PPL/commercial students that might have a little trouble.

While they can't guarantee a job upon completion, I'd rather go to a school that actually puts forth the effort for their students. I'll be going back to HAI to do my CFI because I know they can get it done and done well, rather than the place I'm at which is highly unprofessional but claims to be the regions leader in flight training.

American prices look great compared to UK rates but as a student with 19 hours towards PPL(H) and a desire to go for ATPL I am trying to find out as much as possible about all the routes to professional qualification.

I know a guy from my flight school who's gone to HAI on the FAA course starting last Monday. I've talked to one of HAI's JAA/FAA combined CPL instructors who, obviously, sung the schools praises.
I've spoken to my UK instructor who simply passed valid comments of needing to be careful that the JAA qualification is recognised back here in the UK, and that it is importnat to have knowledge of the airspace you want to fly commercially in, be that US or UK or Oz etc

I am unsure whether to pursue the FAA route myself, after getting the PPL(H) in the UK first. The FAA course seems to be a hell of a lot of training for a lot smaller capital outlay, but:

1) how transferrable is a FAA license if I came back the UK?

2) what conversion would I have to do and how much would it be?

3) If i went on a J-1 for two years, how easy is it to get an instructors or commercial job after the training as I'd need to building as many hours as possible and making some money too!

4) Has anyone heard anything about Ocean helicopters in Florida, they dont do the sling and mountain courses but do everything up to CFII for about £40000, including accomodation

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

all this stuff has been answered before in great detail. I suggest you PM Heliport the moderator - he'll put you straight ! Failing that, do a search. I have spoken to Ocean before. They are exceptionally helpful ( like no other outfit I have ever come across ) and they get great reports on here. Easy - this is a word which does not go hand in hand with the heli-game. It is all vast amounts of cash and shere grit and determination to get anywhere. Then you have to be very lucky !!

TFS

Helicopter Pilot Wannabe
 

Hello,

I was recommended this site by a friend and hoped someone out there could assist me. I am based in the UK and I am trying to figure out the best way of obtaining my PPL (H). For expense purposes the United States is very Ideal. At the moment I am talking to Palm Beach Helicopters, Florida.

Has anyone used this training school before or got any suggestions of a good training school.

The other concern I do have is will it be difficult to transfer my US license into a UK compliant version. Does anyone know the process I will have to go through.

To train in the UK i have been speaking to AV8 Helicopters,Kent.

They are local to me, does any one have any reports on this company.

Basically I am a newbee and desperate to achieve my personal PPL (H), for private flying. Any information would be a great help. Thanks for all your help guys!

From what I've heard, transfering a US licence to UK can take up to a year, plus you'll probably have to take the exams you wouldn't have done in the US. I also hear that it can cost a fair ammount to change it over to the UK (although exactly what the costs are I couldn't say).
Add on the cost of the flight over there and paying for your living/accomodation and it works out almost as expensive as the UK licence!

So unless you really want relatively unspoilt weather and a bit of a holiday whilst learning, or you're prepared to go through the hassles and costs of converting your licence, learn in the UK!:ok:

Hi Broggie check your private messages

Don't know about the US part but I do know about AV8 Helicopters. I would not use them myself there are other helicopter companies in Kent local to you. PM me for more.

I think it also boils down to a time issue. I did my PPL(H) in the US in 5 weeks, cost a lot less and had no trouble flying back in the UK with it.
Another option of coming to the US could be to use a school that offers JAA PPL.
There are pro's and con's of which ever way you do things, you just have to figure out what best fits your situation.

LB :ok:

My recommendation is Dennis Kenyon at Shoreham Airport. (not too far from Kent, I commuted from Bexleyheath for 3 weeks) He'll give you one to one training, and he's not for 'profit' he's for making pilots.
PM me for more details if you like.
Kevin

I liked the link which provided job advertisments, ten pounds to join, looks very simular to their own website design.

Will do you a deal, send me five pounds and I'll give you two job website links :O

Name choice is because I want Heli-Answers !!

I have the questions but not the answers !

Well I have more answers than I did, but still some more questions to be asked !

I don't think they ever stop !

Lightning_Boy

The fivers in the post !!

Palm Beach Helicopters
 

I did my PPL and IR with PBH!

Write me if you have any specific questions about it!


Bo Nielsen

Helo training Aus Vs USA
 

Hi all.
I am hoping you may be able to shed some light.

I am about to commence my commercial helicopter licence & am trying to figure out where is the best place to do it.

My father was a Cheif flying instructor for helicopters and the flying/passion had rubbed off on to me and is something I couldnt shake if I wanted to.
Its something that I have always wanted to do and I know the type of helicopter I want to fly, a 300 type helo as I dont like the R22 ( not starting another thread on that ) and so that limits the schools, and also job prospects to start I bet.
I know I can always get endorsed in a 22 if need be.
I have a school in Oz that I am very interested and there is one in Florida also.

what are the pro's and con's for (learning & career ) flying in Oz vs USA?

Costs seem to be cheaper in the US when you convert the $$$.
BTW I am Australian.
Any and all advise appreciated on this subject.

Thanks

Most pilots here would(I think) say " Do the license where you intend to live and fly". Whether private or commercial that makes good sense.

Private.... You will be learning the rules and regs, area, airspace etc of the area you intend to fly in and you will have the school to fall back on when questions crop up down the line. And they will.

Commercial.. Same as above but also thge people you meet and the contacts you make whilst doing your training will most likely stay with you for the rest of your career. Keep that in mind when deciding wich school to choose and how you are going to conduct yourself whilst learning.