Hmmmmm SASless using a flawed technique doesn't sound like a good tool to have in Your kit! As I said Mate & proven on 6 types, more times than I can count; this thingymebob called the Vuichard recovery method, doesn't afford a recovery at ALL from deeply developed VRS.....so the point clinging to such a method is dangerous at Best! Probably why Robinson is fully into it!

Happy landings

Add terrain into the VRS situation and sometimes going straight ahead might not be the best choice is what I am suggesting.

What is important is understanding VRS and how it affects aircraft performance....the risk it poses....and the quickest way to identify the onset and perform immediate effective recovery techniques.

Knowing how the flight control's effectiveness is affected is part of that.

This accident, and most others, have nothing to do with deeply developed VRS or anything that could be attributed to it.
Vuichard's technique was to make a recovery easier for situations where there was little altitude or suitable terrain to get the nose down.
No technique will make any difference to accidents like this where the cause is PPP.

Your ignoring the fact the Vuichard technique doesn't work in a real VRS situation! (maybe in IVRS; if Your damn lucky) Obviously be aware of surrounds & conditions & do everything You can to avoid VRS; then no recovery technique is required!

Happy landings

VF

Wes Prouty explained this in an issue of Rotortales many many years ago......VRS requires 3 things, relatively high rate of decent ( most modern helicopters about 500') partial power ( can't be in VRS in an autorotation) and low airspeed ( less than translation). Only 2 ways out, moving out of the "bubble" or full down collective and entering autorotation (usually not an option). What you do with the flight controls to get you out of the bubble will depend on many factors, but in my experience lowering the collective as much as possible and forward cyclic is the best muscle memory method.

SWP is simply not enough power ( lift) available for the flight condition, hot/ high for example.

So true Bell Ringer, nothing will save Your arse when in PPP. But You are ignoring the fact that Vuichard technique DOESN'T work in VRS; please don't take my word for it...go prove it for Yourself! & be sure You are fully established in VRS when testing this concept!

Happy landings

I am happy to take your word (you're not alone in your view), I use the conventional methods taught but have always preferred to stick to the basics and to rather plan properly.
Recovery is a poor substitute for prevention.

Bang on Mate.....If my old memory serves me it's 300fpm. But, from experience You need to have way higher ROD, more like +1,000fpm to go VRS! I don't go with lowering the club....just pole forward with power on. That's one less thing to do & I feel You get into cleaner air much faster, powers already on so away You go! The key is tilting the disc, with power on Your pulling clean air into the problem the moment You pole fwd!

SWP; that's a totally different story...pull more power (if You have it without cooking the donk) otherwise same as above pole fwd & fly away!

Happy landings

Gudonya Mate I've been twice in VRS unintended, both times due to environmental factors (localised massive updrafts) which You can't be always planned for, so being ready with a plan B recovery method is always wise!

Cheers

Yes, I said "modern" helicopters.....the S61 can easily do it at 300 ROD. Of course lowering the pole may not be practical, but if altitude allows it will actually get you out sooner and with less RRPM loss. As to SWP, that's the problem, there is no more power. Think loading your Jetbox up to gross at SL and then trying to land at 10,000 PA at +30C. Pulling more is not an option.

To get into VRS you need to be travelling downwards at over half the speed of your downwash and an S61 has far more than 600'/min downwash, more like 2000'/min.

It is all about disc loading - older helicopters had low downwash speeds because engine power was lower and the rotor had to be bigger.

Modern helos have very powerful engines and smaller rotors for the same or increased AUM.

Nick Lappos published a RoD vs Fwd speed diagram for VRS produced, I think, by the US Army. The VRS boundary was related to downwash speed - you needed 0.6 to 0.8 of your downwash speed to catch it up enough to start to ingest it.

https://www.rotorandwing.com/2011/11...wash-velocity/

well as a demo to students in an old heli ( S 300C ) fly downwind at 17"map trying to hold height She looses translational lift at around 20 kts, ROD now about 500 ft plus.Now in IVRS, Pull power up to 24 inches and guess what aircraft climbs back up again. I have to have more than about 800 ft a min for the aircraft not to be able to pull herself out of the situation

Should have added even pulling full power with nose forward I cant stop the 800ft min ROD in 50 ft or Tim Tuckers 30 ft Where am I going wrong ?

VF,

Where did I ever say I endorse the Vulchard Method?

What I have stated is an opposition to limiting VRS recovery to exactly one single method as you seem to be saying.

That kind of mindset....one size fits all kind of thinking.....is not the way life works in flying helicopters.

At altitude well clear of terrain you might be technically correct but when close to the ground you might just want to go towards a particular direction that might just in fact be not straight ahead.

You fly in some mountains....and thus probably understand there are times there might be lots of air under you to one side and lots of rock ahead and on the opposite side to the valley floor.

Would you not want to go towards the valley floor rather than the Ridgeline?

Well I can tell you from experience that the 61 can and will get into VRS at WAY less than 1000 ROD. I was shown this during my initial endorsement over 30 years ago. The instructor simply said climb up to 6000 ft, this near a coastal city and a hazy day so no real discernible horizon. Then he said come to a hover. I brought the nose up lowered the collective just as you normally would. As I was coming to but not quite to zero AS I noticed a slight ROD maybe between 300 to 500' ROD and I just added a bit of collective. Well in a split second we were coming out of the sky like the preverbal greased manhole cover. The instructor pushed the cyclic full forward so we were then looking outside thru the skylights. He said he hates doing that but wanted me to see just how easy it was to get the old girl into VRS. So, as Mr. Prouty said 300' ROD because the S61 is NOT a modern helicopter. Size and gross weight have no bearing on VRS, actually the 2 times I have been in it it was both times in an empty a/c.

Anyway, this has been beat to death......let it die.

Beat to death? It's now 20 years since I originally began it by asking for VRS stories. Long may the discussion continue. :cool:

my point exactly - in a light aircraft with a big rotor, the downwash speed is much slower as you need far less power to hover. Therefore much easier to get into VRS.

It's not about the size and gross weight of the helicopter, it is disc loading which is AUM vs size of the rotor.

I am just passing on information from the likes of Mr Lappos who generally seems to know his way round a helicopter:ok: If you don't like or believe it, that is up to you but that doesn't make it not true.

I think some of you are forgetting that a roll command would respond faster than a pitch (nose down) command. Therefore jumping sideways with pedal assist would be quicker than jumping forward when you have no airspeed!

Unless you encounter VRS from the hover in zero wind in a vertical descent or are downwind, chances are you will have some forward airspeed, even if it doesn't register on the ASI so forward will be better and quicker.

The lateral control input might change the disc attitude slightly quicker than forward but you still have the same amount of inertia in the aircraft to move and you are trying to drag it sideways through the air.

Hey CJ.....have you actually tried & tested this method? It doesn't work in deeply developed VRS! Others here have stated the same concerns! if Your just getting into it (IVRS) then You've a chance of it saving you (fingers crossed). Please read my detailed comments above on this flawed method!

Good luck Mate & Happy landings

VF