Steve Hislop killed in helicopter accident: threads merged
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This was a tragic and sad accident, which i feel has been invistigated fully and the outcome was that hizzy was too inexperienced to cope with the conditions. Most professionals on here would not disagree with the findings.
I miss watching hizzy racing as he was one of the best in the UK... Thats how i would like to remember him and have many good memories of him on the track... maybe we should put this thread to bed!
RIP
I miss watching hizzy racing as he was one of the best in the UK... Thats how i would like to remember him and have many good memories of him on the track... maybe we should put this thread to bed!
RIP
Hovering AND talking
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The accident occurred at 10:00 UTC; this was 11:00 local time. Just puts a slightly different complexion on the timings.
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
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Possibly a silly question from a fixed wing PPL...
Don't modern helicopters come equipped with some rudimentary form of position hold? Unlike fixed wing, this would prove a lifesaver for anyone caught out by weather. A helicopter's ability to actually "stop" in flight is negated if it enters instrument conditions.
Best,
Sicknote
Don't modern helicopters come equipped with some rudimentary form of position hold? Unlike fixed wing, this would prove a lifesaver for anyone caught out by weather. A helicopter's ability to actually "stop" in flight is negated if it enters instrument conditions.
Best,
Sicknote
Not a silly question if you don't know the answer. Too expensive for the cheaper end helicopters. Even some good twin eng heli's don't have IFR fit. As for things like doppler hover etc? I think not, if thats what you mean.
Some autopilots will bring you to 50' above runway height at 70kts, although, playing around a bit, saw that 50kts and 20' above the runway is possible from a fully coupled ILS. (courtesy of The Governor) but this isnt going to work out in open countryside, on a hillside, in ****e weather.
As for modern, the R22 /R44 is still being produced to day so in effect, is a modern helicopter. Inside you couldn't ask for more basic, unless of course you climb into a schweizer?
Some autopilots will bring you to 50' above runway height at 70kts, although, playing around a bit, saw that 50kts and 20' above the runway is possible from a fully coupled ILS. (courtesy of The Governor) but this isnt going to work out in open countryside, on a hillside, in ****e weather.
As for modern, the R22 /R44 is still being produced to day so in effect, is a modern helicopter. Inside you couldn't ask for more basic, unless of course you climb into a schweizer?
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Sicknote
Even the more expensive modern helicopters (£4million/EC135T2) with autopilot lack the ability to remain hands off below around 60kts. Most GA heli's are much further down the chain of sophistication and 'most' owner/operators are flying around in R22/R44 and perhaps B206's with no stability whatsoever.
In my experience these accidents often come down to the matter of decision making, based on the forecast weather (should I even attempt the sortie), experience (have I been in a similar situation before and how did I survive it), aircraft capability (and my proven ability to use those capabilities to the full if required).
I have lost a few good friends over the years due to aircraft failure, but far more due to them making the wrong decision in poor weather (ie to continue at low level and look for a gap in the weather or the terrain).
Even the more expensive modern helicopters (£4million/EC135T2) with autopilot lack the ability to remain hands off below around 60kts. Most GA heli's are much further down the chain of sophistication and 'most' owner/operators are flying around in R22/R44 and perhaps B206's with no stability whatsoever.
In my experience these accidents often come down to the matter of decision making, based on the forecast weather (should I even attempt the sortie), experience (have I been in a similar situation before and how did I survive it), aircraft capability (and my proven ability to use those capabilities to the full if required).
I have lost a few good friends over the years due to aircraft failure, but far more due to them making the wrong decision in poor weather (ie to continue at low level and look for a gap in the weather or the terrain).
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"A helicopter's ability to actually "stop" in flight is negated if it enters instrument conditions"
The corollary of this is that the helicopter's ability to stop and land (just about anywhere) is a wonderful way of avoiding entering instrument conditions in the first place. Just put it down on a flattish surface, shut down and sit it out, or walk to the nearest dwelling.
I'm not too proud to say that I've done this more than once, usually restarting and continuing to my destination a few minutes later, sometimes restarting and only getting a little further on and sometimes continuing by car and rescuing the chopper the next day.
SB
The corollary of this is that the helicopter's ability to stop and land (just about anywhere) is a wonderful way of avoiding entering instrument conditions in the first place. Just put it down on a flattish surface, shut down and sit it out, or walk to the nearest dwelling.
I'm not too proud to say that I've done this more than once, usually restarting and continuing to my destination a few minutes later, sometimes restarting and only getting a little further on and sometimes continuing by car and rescuing the chopper the next day.
SB
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I am not a pilot of any type, just an interested observer of aircraft.
It does seem that many of the high profile helicopter accidents involve poor conditions, which would seem to indicate that SBs approaching of setting down and waiting for the weather to clear, or continuing by car and fetching the helicopter later is the wisest course of action. However I can also understand why many would not want to do that and would prefer to continue flying on the "it will get better soon" or "it won't happen to me" optimitic thoughts.
It does seem that many of the high profile helicopter accidents involve poor conditions, which would seem to indicate that SBs approaching of setting down and waiting for the weather to clear, or continuing by car and fetching the helicopter later is the wisest course of action. However I can also understand why many would not want to do that and would prefer to continue flying on the "it will get better soon" or "it won't happen to me" optimitic thoughts.
The accident occurred at 10:00 UTC; this was 11:00 local time. Just puts a slightly different complexion on the timings.
Perhaps, but the Metar's/TAFs, makling the assumption the trip was planned using them, are in Zulu too. In my experience ATC/OPS, there are many private pilots who seem to forget or not realise this potentially vital time difference. Booking out is a typical and frequent example.
My first thoughts on hearing of the accident were wondering if it were a poor weather/low hours/CFT/UFIT accident. I was not surprised to see the 'conclusion' reached due to weather, location, relatively low hours, and Type (light, non IFR).
Perhaps, but the Metar's/TAFs, makling the assumption the trip was planned using them, are in Zulu too. In my experience ATC/OPS, there are many private pilots who seem to forget or not realise this potentially vital time difference. Booking out is a typical and frequent example.
My first thoughts on hearing of the accident were wondering if it were a poor weather/low hours/CFT/UFIT accident. I was not surprised to see the 'conclusion' reached due to weather, location, relatively low hours, and Type (light, non IFR).
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I can only apologise to those who knew Steve Hislop and for whom this continued debate must be most unpleasant. My post (30/4), which I had intended to be a seperate thread, was aimed squarely at the the very poor reporting standards exhibited by the media when writing about the Fatal Accident Enquiry. Unfortunately my post was seen to be relevant to this thread and moved, a decision I did not agree with. I would endorse the opinion that the thread should cease now as it is merely going over old ground.
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Martin,
I can only endorse what you have said. I don't know whether the usual poor standard of reporting by the media, or this thread would cause more distress to his family and friends (if they read it), but surely it's time for the moderators to lock it up and leave it at that.
I can only endorse what you have said. I don't know whether the usual poor standard of reporting by the media, or this thread would cause more distress to his family and friends (if they read it), but surely it's time for the moderators to lock it up and leave it at that.
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Inquiry
212,
Apologies for the error in accounting for your experience.
Im sorry to say that concensus still proves nothing. Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one.
We all are well aware that the weather and cumulo-granite is the heli pilots greatest challenge.
School auxiliary Maureen Briggs, 63, told the hearing she was in her garden when she heard a helicopter noise overhead, followed "seconds" later by the sound of jets and then a bang.
"Suddenly there was a terrific noise of two jets," she said.
"They were on their sides going up each side of the valley, very low. "It was immediately after the helicopter."
Here is something to support an earler part of a post.
perhaps they weren't so experienced as was claimed.
Scissor, this is something I hope you regret, You did not know anything of this man.
The real tragedy and loss of this accident is lost to most of you, I can assure you that the family of the victim are hardened to this sort of debate considering the years passed and the Inquiry just completed.
Moderator,
I believe that there is an interest to the greater good and learning from this post and believe it should continue. If you need further approval pm me.
Apologies for the error in accounting for your experience.
Im sorry to say that concensus still proves nothing. Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one.
We all are well aware that the weather and cumulo-granite is the heli pilots greatest challenge.
School auxiliary Maureen Briggs, 63, told the hearing she was in her garden when she heard a helicopter noise overhead, followed "seconds" later by the sound of jets and then a bang.
"Suddenly there was a terrific noise of two jets," she said.
"They were on their sides going up each side of the valley, very low. "It was immediately after the helicopter."
Squadron leader John Rigby said he had told his crew to move away from the A7 valley during an exercise from RAF Lossiemouth, to avoid cloud which can cause pilots to become disorientated.
Scissor, this is something I hope you regret, You did not know anything of this man.
Private pilot+too much money+helicopter+ego+bad weather = DEAD !! End of Story.
Moderator,
I believe that there is an interest to the greater good and learning from this post and believe it should continue. If you need further approval pm me.
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scottish terrier,
You seem to be one of the very few who thinks so. It's time it was put to rest.
I believe that there is an interest to the greater good and learning from this post and believe it should continue.
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If you have to fly in it and don't want to stay home and drink coffee
-Use RainX so the water beads off
-Slow Down
-Always make sure you can see a ridge in front before you leave the one beside you
-Always have an Out, don't get stuck up a valley and can't turn around
-Land take the door off and throw it in the back, that way when it gets REALLY bad you can stick your head out and also you get incredible visibility slightly forward and out to the side. Water on bubble gives some nasty illusions
-Picking up wet pax get them to take off there raincoats so bubble doesn't fog up quick
-Get the demister/airflow going hard, rather be frozen then not see
-Remember its easier to go up to a pass then get back down, come back down go slow,get the hillside nearest to you and make sure you dont fly away and lose reference
-be careful going over a ridge that the wind doesn't push you up into the cloud, crossing at a 45 at least helps... can see something on the otherside before you cross/commit
-Watch the cloud isn't slowly getting lower and pushing you down into a wire filled enviorment. Also flying a valley you don't know and hitting a wire
-Land
-Stay at home
These worked for me in the past found most of it out my yakking to guys who have forgotten more then I will ever know, must be lots other ideas out there
-Use RainX so the water beads off
-Slow Down
-Always make sure you can see a ridge in front before you leave the one beside you
-Always have an Out, don't get stuck up a valley and can't turn around
-Land take the door off and throw it in the back, that way when it gets REALLY bad you can stick your head out and also you get incredible visibility slightly forward and out to the side. Water on bubble gives some nasty illusions
-Picking up wet pax get them to take off there raincoats so bubble doesn't fog up quick
-Get the demister/airflow going hard, rather be frozen then not see
-Remember its easier to go up to a pass then get back down, come back down go slow,get the hillside nearest to you and make sure you dont fly away and lose reference
-be careful going over a ridge that the wind doesn't push you up into the cloud, crossing at a 45 at least helps... can see something on the otherside before you cross/commit
-Watch the cloud isn't slowly getting lower and pushing you down into a wire filled enviorment. Also flying a valley you don't know and hitting a wire
-Land
-Stay at home
These worked for me in the past found most of it out my yakking to guys who have forgotten more then I will ever know, must be lots other ideas out there
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Inquiry
For all out there who's sensibilities have been troubled by the continuation of the tread and discussion. A Scottish Court has just completed a Fatal Accident inquiry whos findings have not been released.
This discussion is going on elswhere so there is no need to end this thread.
Scissor,
I dont think your advice is really the kind of info that well benefit someone of low time. Best advice for low time folks is dont go or sit it out .
Rapman.
Best guessing does not answer the other related issues. It is arrogant of you to state what other people may think or believe. I can assure you your opinion is not shared by all.
ST
This discussion is going on elswhere so there is no need to end this thread.
Scissor,
I dont think your advice is really the kind of info that well benefit someone of low time. Best advice for low time folks is dont go or sit it out .
Rapman.
Best guessing does not answer the other related issues. It is arrogant of you to state what other people may think or believe. I can assure you your opinion is not shared by all.
ST
