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Why are helis so expensive?

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Why are helis so expensive?

Old 29th Jul 2003, 21:02
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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With all the foregoing information which looks as though rotary flight is more expensive than fixed wing BUT.
Think of the financial advantages of flying a helicopter!

1, Owning your own, having it at home:-
a. You will not have to build a huge runway
b. You will not have to drive to the airfield where the fixed
wing is parked.
c. You will not be restricted by airfield opening times.
d. You will not pay landing fees, other than when you go to
refuel.
e. Fuel could be significantly cheaper if you have your own
tank and uplift sufficient according to supplier.
f. Even if you hire, landing fees should be less if you avoid
airfields until having to refuel.

There must be other savings.

It is my opinion that 'Landing fees' should be 'Air traffic fees' for helicopters and as the workload to accept and dispatch a helicopter is the same whatever the size There should be just one cost for helicopter inbound and outbound movements and not associated with weight as are fixed wing.
Does anybody else out there think that helicopters are unjustly over-charged in respect of landing fees? But that's another topic.

Insurance is an annual premium. Therefore, the more hours flown per year the less is the hourly rate. Insurance is a large part of helicopter operations, more risk, higher value items = more cost, when compared to fixed wing operations
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Old 29th Jul 2003, 22:07
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Dave,
The S-92 did not benifit from Black Hawk experience with regard to certification of development expense, since only a few components are shared between the models, none in the rotor or drive area where the real expense lies.

As a general rule, the certification of a new aircraft seems to take about 1500 to 2000 hours of engineering test. We tend to spend about 20 to 40,000 dollars per hour for this work, so that flight test alone costs about $50 million dollars. This might be halved for a light helo with fewer parts and systems to test and document, but the result, 25 Mill, is still steep. If you sell 1000 of the little guys, the flight test alone would cost 25,000 apiece.

This does not include design, fabrication, production start-up and the like. In the aerospace world, 5 engineers or technicians for a year cost about 1 Million dollars in salary, bennies and overhead (the tools, computers and lab equipment are all expensive, and included in this number). A small helo might take 25 to 50 engineers, and maybe half that in technicians, so a force of perhaps 60 people (8 Million per year) might work for 3 years to design, build, certify, and produce the first aircraft. That is 36 million, or about 36,000 per aircraft if you sell a thousand.

That means that you must spend about 60,000 dollars per aircraft to get the first aircraft out the door, without buying one engine or one pound of aluminum!
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Old 30th Jul 2003, 11:32
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Great break down Nick. I'm sure that the town of Stafford has there hand out too, along with the State of Connecticut, not to mention Uncle Sam, and then the Trial Lawyers when one breaks. What then happens if you don't sell 1000 machines but 250 or fewer? I don't know how many S-92's you guys have orders for but I would bet money that you will figuire that you did great with 200 orders.
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Old 30th Jul 2003, 12:41
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Nick,

Thanks for the informative reply.
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Old 30th Jul 2003, 17:43
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I haven't flown rotary for about 5 years, and had the idle thought to resurrect my Jetranger rating.

Quoted a minimum of 2 hours training/flying time in 206 @ £525.00/hour plus vat and an LPC test @ £150.00 plus vat.

Is there a legal requirement for at least two hours before the test?

Sadly not piston rated at all, so it's probably not going to happen.
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Old 1st Aug 2003, 08:41
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George,

You are right, it is a real crapshoot, isn't it?
A book a few years back written about the airplane business noted that it took an investment equal to the entire value of the company every 10 to 15 years to develop the next generation, and one false step meant oblivion. The book was called "The Sporty Game" because we must roll the dice as if we knew the outcome.

When Igor was 51, he decided to build his first helicopter, and he told his wife he would mortgage the house if the United Aircraft board wouldn't fund him. That's dedication!

Take a half a billion dollars ($500,000,000) and divide by 500 aircraft, and you get 1 million apiece just for the development. If you sell for $16 million, that's just 7% of the sales price! This is just in case you wonder why Sikorsky makes the BIG helicopters...........
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Old 1st Aug 2003, 13:44
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Nick Lappos,
In your response to Dave Jackson you list the cost of new design testing at 20 to $40,000 per hour and half that for a small trainer.
Your numbers seem incredibly high to me.
I have no experience with helicopter testing but I have done fixed wing certification testing and the cost was about $20 per hour labor plus a few hundred for custom test jigs. This was at a small family owned airplane factory without any engineers on staff, just me and the owner.
The FAA did not charge for their time.
I think a determined individual could certify a new design with minimal funds.
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Old 20th Mar 2004, 09:51
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". It's not like you can buy parts from another source."

opening in the market for someone there!

I remember reading an article about motorbike parts once. The cost of the bike if bought in component form and assembled accordingly, was about ten times that if bought brand new from the showroom.

Servicing is the same. Look at what you pay for servicing for a brand new BMW. THen, if it is over four years old, they will knock you a third off the labour rates with their "four plus" scheme.

Getting ripped off is just part of the deal. In the case of the Robbo, I would have thought it has more than paid off its development costs by now.

The other thing is, that cheaper components provide some incentive to change them earlier, rather than taking them to end of life.
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Old 20th Mar 2004, 13:13
  #29 (permalink)  
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opening in the market for someone there!
that is hardly going to happen in the world of helicopters.
the cost of liability insurance would be prohibative.
Also, Frank is able to control the market somewhat, by prohibiting the fitting of "unauthorized" parts to his helicopters.
Doing so would void any insurance you may have, and upset the authorities somewhat.
It would only take one prang atributed to the failure of one of the after market part, and that would be the end of that particular supplier.
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Old 20th Mar 2004, 19:00
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Standto;
I remember reading an article about motorbike parts once. The cost of the bike if bought in component form and assembled accordingly, was about ten times that if bought brand new from the showroom.
There is justification for some of this price difference. I am assuming that the following is applicable to all automotive manufacturers. The values given are approximate.
___________________

GM in Australia would shut down a component production line (say camshafts) every few months. All of the machines would be refurbished so that the production tolerances could be brought to 0.0001". The first 2,000 new camshafts would be assigned to 'replacement parts'. The remaining 50,000 camshafts produced would then go to the engine assembly line. The camshafts going to the assembly line would have lower tolerances, of course.

This was done for two reasons. One, they wanted to be sure that replacement parts worked, and two, the cost of refurbishing all of the component production line every 2,000 parts would significantly increase the price of a new car.

I assume that the helicopter industry requires a tolerance of 0.0001 on all parts produced.
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Old 20th Mar 2004, 20:38
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Standto said:

"Getting ripped off is just part of the deal"

I think few businesses stay open for long by ripping off. The typical hour of labor for skilled people (like helo mechanics or engineers) is about 100 dollars per hour. As a comparison, the local Ford car dealers charge about 75 per hour for common repairs. These prices seem high, but that is what it costs to do it in the business.

I had a septic system surveyed for a house I was building, and the surveyor charged 100 per hour for each of his 2 man crew. Sears charges that for the guy who travels to fix the washing machine. Rip-offs? Nope.

I guess slowrotor thinks these people can be hired for $20 per hour, but I sure can't find good folks for that!
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Old 21st Mar 2004, 00:50
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Isn't the commercial rate is closer to $75 / hr actually about the same as a car dealer. seem to recall this rate used in calcluating DOCS a couple of years ago ?. So what should the unit cost of the Bell 427 have been if they amortised the development over the 40 aircraft they have sold ?. A question for bean counters , what is the main difference between US and European GAAP when it comes to expensing of development costs ?
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Old 21st Mar 2004, 14:54
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How can $3,000 for two poorly made doors be justified?
I was just thinking, of course down here, just don't buy doors and have a tarp/hangar ....
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