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Two helicopters collide - Gold Coast, Queensland - Sea World 2/1/2023

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Two helicopters collide - Gold Coast, Queensland - Sea World 2/1/2023

Old 4th Jan 2023, 12:39
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Originally Posted by Arm out the window View Post
Many many what-ifs.

Maybe it wouldn't have made any difference, as the pilot of the less damaged machine didn't seem to have the other one sighted at all prior to impact, but what strikes me from that rear pax video is how he (understandably) whacks the pilot on the shoulder to presumably draw his attention to the converging flight paths, but that gets the pilot looking to the right and inside at the exact point where he may have had a chance of evasive action. Probably too late at that stage anyhow, but just a sad observation.
I was thinking the same. Quite possibly, trying to avoid the situation worsened it. But I can't say I wouldn't have done the same in a panic... although had the pax had training/been crew I'd have expected a shout of traffic! not a rapid tapping on the shoulder.

Benefits of hindsight I suppose. Sad all round.

I can't see anyone talking, but the impression I got was the pilot has looked to the right at something right before the rear pax leant forward. Other (further off?) traffic?
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 14:17
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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VFR wasn't Applied. Sad
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 14:34
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Having only ever flown as a crew of two, three or four I canít imagine the amount of pressure there is on a single pilot flying PAX around like this. Multiple Quick flights, assuming 10-15 minutes duration in a high density traffic area, maybe you get used to a pattern of where you normally would look for other traffic?

Regardless of all the details that will be revealed during the investigation, it comes down to this: neither one of those pilots went to work that day expecting to get into a mid-air. Iím sure the pilot that was able to land is completely gutted.

What Iím taking out of this as aircrew is listen and look closer during those critical phases of flight and to be complacent or get sucked in a routine. It only takes a few seconds for something horrible to happen.

Our old Chief Pilot would always ask us on crew brief ďin your opinion, what will the most dangerous point of our flight be today?Ē I always thought the emergency procedures part of standardization rides while in traffic patterns ranked pretty highly, if the airport we were using was busy, but departures and landings are pretty much always the most dangerous part of our flights because of the density of traffic in the area.

Condolences to all involved.

FltMech





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Old 4th Jan 2023, 15:00
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Film of the actual collision from a distance.

Strangely if someone taps you on the shoulder you tend to turn in that direction to see who it is, one does wonder if the pax had tapped him on his left shoulder his head may have looked out of the left side momentarily, but whether it would have effected the outcome is debatable.
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 15:23
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post
you can have traffic warning systems like TCAS or less expensive alternatives, but in non-automated flight, they are going to be the last tool in the flight safety box. Well thought through and observed procedures go a looong way to minimizing risk. Consider also that there are still numpties flying around with their transponders switched off if there is no flight environment or regulatory requirement. Agree with earlier posters that such warning systems or lack of is not likely to be a significant contributor to this event.
I tend to disagree with the last statement. Yes, the accident could also have been prevented on a procedural level by flight path separation. However, I don't see that as an argument against traffic displays.
As crab wrote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
(...)
There is nothing worse than knowing another aircraft is somewhere near you and not being able to see it.
I know that feeling all too well. If I get it I move my head around A LOT trying to eliminate the blind spots.
The pilot did not seem like he was even remotely expecting the second helicopter from the left.

I think adsb, flarm or another traffic display system might have very well given the necessary situational awareness to both pilots. I've had enough situations where I was very grateful for the ipad telling me in which direction to expect traffic.
"numpties flying around with their transponders switched off" will always be a problem at least until the regulators force them to. But arguably are not a factor here as the two helicopters were from the same operator.
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 15:35
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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That's similar to the principle of 'Threat and Error Management'.

It would be interesting to see if a practicable application of Threat an Error Management is incorporated into their SMS or daily pilot brief.


Our old Chief Pilot would always ask us on crew brief “in your opinion, what will the most dangerous point of our flight be today?”




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Old 4th Jan 2023, 15:37
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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All a TA system will tell you, in close proximity to a helistop, is that there is a lot of traffic to avoid. Distracting alerts that state the obvious, while drawing the eyes inwards, donít help prevent accidents.
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 15:42
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer View Post
All a TA system will tell you, in close proximity to a helistop, is that there is a lot of traffic to avoid. Distracting alerts that state the obvious, while drawing the eyes inwards, donít help prevent accidents.
Maybe a system designed for airliners is not suitable here. Traffic displayed directly on your moving map ipad gives a massive increase in SA at a glance.
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 15:50
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Originally Posted by whoknows idont View Post
Maybe a system designed for airliners is not suitable here. Traffic displayed directly on your moving map ipad gives a massive increase in SA at a glance.
SA in VFR is about eyes outside of the cockpit, not having more to look at inside one. Technology does not always improve safety.
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 15:58
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Would you really want to go heads down to check a display, then come heads up again during the very early portions of a climb out (as is the case here)? I wouldn't. Perhaps a directional audio cue would be better.

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Old 4th Jan 2023, 16:04
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This appears to be a video from inside one of the Heli's


Last edited by golfbananajam; 4th Jan 2023 at 16:13. Reason: typo's corrected
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 16:19
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer View Post
SA in VFR is about eyes outside of the cockpit, not having more to look at inside one. Technology does not always improve safety.
It does sometimes! Have you ever flown with traffic displayed on a moving map?

Originally Posted by Ewan Whosearmy View Post
Would you really want to go heads down to check a display, then come heads up again during the very early portions of a climb out (as is the case here)? I wouldn't. Perhaps a directional audio cue would be better.
If you're talking about the very early portions of the climb out then you might as well have a quick look at the display before lifting from the pad.
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 16:27
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That's what we did with TAS on the Dauphin and 412 - get your SA in early and then lookout.
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 16:35
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Originally Posted by whoknows idont View Post
It does sometimes! Have you ever flown with traffic displayed on a moving map?



If you're talking about the very early portions of the climb out then you might as well have a quick look at the display before lifting from the pad.
Marvellous in flight, unhelpful on finals.
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 16:45
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Rather than debate when to be looking inside at a TAS how. about we start with asking questions about how many "Alerts" or other advisories would be triggered on such displays during the time period leading up to this collision.

How many airplanes and helicopters were airborne or on the ground and close enough to generate an indication on TAS or other traffic warning systems?

Would there enough to saturate the system and thus render them to be more a distraction than an aid?

For flight operations being conducted by the two helicopters....at what distance would other traffic not be seen as a conflict and how would you a Pilot be able to minimize warnings that did not constitute an actual conflict.

Would a Pilot be prone to turn the audio down to prevent having the audio alerts interfering with radio calls by other traffic?

Technology is grand but sometimes it proves to be a distraction rather than an aid.

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Old 4th Jan 2023, 18:27
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That is true for the pilot approaching the LS but all he needs to know is what is between him and the LS and if he knows another helo is taking off from where he is planning to land (or very close to it) then that should be his focus.

The alerts differ depending on proximity (or tau in the case of fast movers) so the highest threat is easy to determine.

The departing pilot would note the proximity of the landing traffic and try to identify it before taking off.

No it's not foolproof but a simple system like TAS has saved me on a number of occasions, even in congested VFR airspace.

And no, it isn't a replacement for good lookout but flying with TAS has helped me see other aircraft sooner than I probably would because it directs your lookout into the right area.

And no, it won't protect you from non-squawking traffic but that's not a reason not to have it.
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 18:31
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Crab, what were you flying at those times?
Airspace is shared, rarely by fully equipped aircraft.
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 19:31
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Don't know if this has already been mentioned but you would have to ask why they were not doing a race track pattern of departing and incoming aircraft, both going in the same direction, presumably into wind? Instead of taking off and landing towards each other?
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 19:51
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Originally Posted by Weheka View Post
Don't know if this has already been mentioned but you would have to ask why they were not doing a race track pattern of departing and incoming aircraft, both going in the same direction, presumably into wind? Instead of taking off and landing towards each other?
time/money? What you suggest may take up a considerable proportion of the 5 or 10 minute pleasure flight.
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 20:06
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Originally Posted by Weheka View Post
Don't know if this has already been mentioned but you would have to ask why they were not doing a race track pattern of departing and incoming aircraft, both going in the same direction, presumably into wind? Instead of taking off and landing towards each other?
It was suggested to me by someone that has landed there before that the pattern may be set up that way so as to avoid flights over one of the hotels in close proximity to the landing area.

There are multiple hotels / resorts in the area, of which one or more are of the high-end type and one of those resorts is part of the theme park right next door.
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