Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

UH-60A (UTTAS) Original PID Specs/ Original RFP

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

UH-60A (UTTAS) Original PID Specs/ Original RFP

Old 8th Jun 2022, 20:21
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: NC
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
UH-60A (UTTAS) Original PID Specs/ Original RFP

Howdy everyone,
On a mission to find the original Prime Item Development Specs (PIDS) for the UH-60A (UTTAS)...... or perhaps the original RFP (and attached docs) that was released in January 1972 for the UTTAS Program. I'm conducting research to challenge the FAA and it's subsequent restrictions as they pertain to the UH-60 vs Restricted Category Aircraft designation. The PIDS would spell out the requirements of the UH-60. These requirements will help me marry the comments asociated with the "Airworthiness and Flight Characteristics Evaluation UH-60A Helicopter'" (which I have a copy of). Hoping someone out there might be able to help me with this research.

SHarris62
Sharris62 is offline  
Old 8th Jun 2022, 20:54
  #2 (permalink)  
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: The Gulf Coast
Posts: 1,180
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Just a quick note: we occasionally get insights on the UTTAS program from a gent who was in on the ground floor; look for posts by JohnDixson.
I have moved this post to the Rotorheads forum, from the Military Aviation forum, in hopes that he, and others familiar with that program who now and again post here, may be more likely to see it.
T28B is offline  
Old 8th Jun 2022, 21:14
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Can't help you find the documents, but here are the document numbers.

Request for Proposal, DAAJOI-72-R-02S4(P401), "Utility Tactical Transport Aircraft System," 30 December 1971, revised 10 March 1972.
Prime Item Development Specification for Utility Tactical Transport Aircraft System, Specification No. AMC-CP-2222-31000, I March 1976.
retoocs is offline  
Old 8th Jun 2022, 22:37
  #4 (permalink)  
fdr
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 3rd Rock, #29B
Posts: 1,589
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
As T28B says, JohnDixson was involved with the UTTAS testing, and the NASA NTRS report has much of his activity. There is also a lot more that he was involved in that doesn't come up in that particular document. He responds to private messaging and is a wealth of knowledge.
fdr is online now  
Old 8th Jun 2022, 22:58
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 570
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sharris62 View Post
. I'm conducting research to challenge the FAA and it's subsequent restrictions as they pertain to the UH-60 vs Restricted Category Aircraft designation.
Curious. What "category" are you looking to qualify the UH60 under?
wrench1 is offline  
Old 8th Jun 2022, 23:25
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downeast
Age: 74
Posts: 17,497
Received 8 Likes on 5 Posts
I advised Brother John he had been called out by a Mod....let's see how quickly he responds!

I neglected to specify that it was in search of assistance to further the discussion however!
SASless is offline  
Old 9th Jun 2022, 01:05
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hobe Sound, Florida
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Sharris62 see PM

Sharris62: Just advised that your PM box is full and cannot accept my PM with contact info.

Last edited by JohnDixson; 9th Jun 2022 at 01:33.
JohnDixson is online now  
Old 9th Jun 2022, 02:21
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: yes
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I have the 1997 UH-60L PIDS.
JimEli is offline  
Old 9th Jun 2022, 11:44
  #9 (permalink)  
fdr
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 3rd Rock, #29B
Posts: 1,589
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The air loads report which has a lot of JDs effort involved I believe would be a good supporting point
fdr is online now  
Old 9th Jun 2022, 12:58
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hobe Sound, Florida
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by fdr View Post
The air loads report which has a lot of JDs effort involved I believe would be a good supporting point
FDR, in addition to the Flight Loads Survey data, ther were also 4 successive Structural demonstrations ( see AMCP 706-203 for required test data points ) during the initial and early years.
1. Pre fly-off with Boeing
2. Maturity Phase, i.e, the production machine
3. ESSS ( wings/tanks ) System installed.
4. Inlet Particle Separator system ( limited data points ).
NB The FAA does not require anything close to the military structural demonstration testing, but does have some fixation on some somewhat out of date subjects ( when considering the presence of sophisticated modern helicopter AFCS systems ) like longitudinal static stability that can be thorny when working with the FAA.

Then later on there was substantial structural testing done with the L model, the composite rotor blades etc. What I’m saying is that the original data is a starting point, but the aircraft improvements/upgrades have been the subject of substantial further testing and those efforts need to be taken into account when evaluating the current M model offerings.and derivatives. Just one “ little “ example that I think was noted recently in answer to a related discussion was that in qualifying the composite rotor blades, the ballistic testing as originally done on the Ti spar blades was all replicated 23MM HEI real ammo etc on the composite rotor-all the original angles etc.

Have not had any contact from Sharris62 yet so am left wondering if that was a serious query.
JohnDixson is online now  
Old 9th Jun 2022, 13:07
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 63
Posts: 6,130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
John: I suspect it was, I think that new members have limits on their PM amount.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 9th Jun 2022, 14:07
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hobe Sound, Florida
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
If so, LW, then they will be needing official and current data and will only be able to obtain that data from S A. Original A and L model Pids are “ interesting “ for background, but no longer define the aircraft.
JohnDixson is online now  
Old 9th Jun 2022, 16:36
  #13 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: NC
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by wrench1 View Post
Curious. What "category" are you looking to qualify the UH60 under?
Our UH-60A is under Restricted Category and will remain as such. I need to prove to the FAA that an "Equivalent Level of Safety" was met...... seeking to obtain waiver from FAA for 133.45(d).
Sharris62 is offline  
Old 9th Jun 2022, 22:37
  #14 (permalink)  
Chief Bottle Washer
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: PPRuNe
Posts: 4,163
Received 5 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by JohnDixson View Post
Sharris62 see PM

Sharris62: Just advised that your PM box is full and cannot accept my PM with contact info.
John, you should be able to send him an email: either click on his username and the dropdown list has 'Send email to Sharris62' as the third choice, or do the same and select 'View Public Profile' and select send an email there.

Regards
Senior Pilot is offline  
Old 9th Jun 2022, 22:49
  #15 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: NC
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sent John a PM with my cell number. My email is:

[email protected]
Sharris62 is offline  
Old 9th Jun 2022, 23:13
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downeast
Age: 74
Posts: 17,497
Received 8 Likes on 5 Posts
SHarris62,

Check your email....sent you a message with a point of contact that might be able to answer some questions for you.
SASless is offline  
Old 10th Jun 2022, 16:15
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hobe Sound, Florida
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Had a chat with Sharris62 and have hopefully put him in contact with two very experienced folk who can assist in his endeavor. Thanks to all who have assisted-it sounded like the direction he is headed was worthwhile.
JohnDixson is online now  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.