Stretched Gazelle or B206L1 C30 for SPIFR
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At the risk of appearing a little argumentative, the 206L-1 was originaly fitted with a Detriot Deisel Allison 250-C28B engine, not a C28. As an engineer, I took care of one such example in the tropics for many years and it never gave any trouble, neither did the helicopter performance suffer, it always carried what we were tasked to do so - albeit at sea-level.
cant go wrong with Long Ranger and L1 with C-30 upgrade is nice platform. OY-HPJ is the reg on Billund Air Center (BAC) 206L with IFR cert. it had belt driven back up generator. A Gazzelle with early design fenestron, I would not even compair it.
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The alternate power source (plus a few other items) was from back before they revised Part 27 in the late 90s and was dealt with by a 2nd gen on the engine. The revised Part 27 required a "1 in a Billion" failure rate for any critical systems which was different than Part 23 airplane IFR requirement of "1 in a Million" failures. This high ratio required dual hyd, dual/triple navs, etc. and basically killed any new single IFR platforms. The original Bell SPIFR kits predated that revision. Fortunately the discussion of single IFR came to the fore front around 2015 or so and laid the ground work for the recently approved 407 and AW119 IFR STCs.
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If recall correctly , the big issue with SPIFR for a single engine helicopter was the alternate electrical power source . I know that American Eurocopter had a limited STC for AS 350 BA and Bell have one for 407 SR11241DS. Cannot recall how they overcame the power issue.
The advantage of this secondary one is that it is driven a different drive train, if the engine stops for what ever reason, the standby gene keeps turning as there is a bypass gear train in the gearbox which keeps it generating.
Thread drift:
Re redundant electrical power on single engine helicopters.
We had a 205A-1 doing magnetometer surveys.
The system required lots of power.
Initially this was provided by a generator mounted on the hard points on the port/left side. it was as big as a home freezer providing lots of drag and also weighed a lot reducing payload.
After a bit of head scratching and In a move of pure genius they yanked that generator off. They then removed the rotor brake installing a transmission driven generator in its place. Worked very well.
Re redundant electrical power on single engine helicopters.
We had a 205A-1 doing magnetometer surveys.
The system required lots of power.
Initially this was provided by a generator mounted on the hard points on the port/left side. it was as big as a home freezer providing lots of drag and also weighed a lot reducing payload.
After a bit of head scratching and In a move of pure genius they yanked that generator off. They then removed the rotor brake installing a transmission driven generator in its place. Worked very well.
I assume the battery would then provide power for the short duration of the speedy return to the planet’s surface.
While in theory and use on the airplane side this is possible they have yet to accept the battery as an alternate power source for IFR SE rotorcraft. But it is being discussed. As I recall the current SPIFR offerings in the AW119 have dual generators, dual hydraulics, etc. The Bell 407 GXi IFR kit has dual generators but received waivers on several systems like dual hydraulics. Supposedly each model will be at HeliExpo 2022 with each OEM making their sales pitch to their SPIFR SE STC. Will be interesting if it does catch on.
Last edited by wrench1; 6th Mar 2022 at 19:40. Reason: Read chart wrong
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Just to further develop the chat, I accept the the Longranger option is by far the best, does anybody out there have any experience or ideas on the major differences between the Collins or the Sfena Autopilot offerings, as both were offered by Bell in their original SP IFR kits. I am sure one must be better than the other, offer more options be operationally smoother or any other factor.
Any feed back would be most helpful for my project.
Any feed back would be most helpful for my project.
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We had the Collins - be careful of the last letter in the serial number - apparently it determines whether it was fitted at the factory or as an aftermarket option. Caused a few weeks' delay with the Alton Towers one.
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Ok still listening to all the various comments. I cannot believe there is not an IRE, instructor, or just an experienced pilot who has not at some time used both types of autopilot ? Any gut feeling, hearsay or other comments are most often founded on reality and somebody's experience, anything would be helpful.
Yes I do hear the various comments about buying an old twin, but will have to look into the running costs and useful load. Obviously I am not specifically planning to do lots of SP IFR flying but if the capability and the equipment is there it can be very comforting and enable a slightly marginal VFR flight to be completed safely and legally. I know there are always the arguments about if the weather is that bad, just cancel and reschedule, but the unexpected does happen, and sometimes the options are not as varied as one might hope.
Yes I do hear the various comments about buying an old twin, but will have to look into the running costs and useful load. Obviously I am not specifically planning to do lots of SP IFR flying but if the capability and the equipment is there it can be very comforting and enable a slightly marginal VFR flight to be completed safely and legally. I know there are always the arguments about if the weather is that bad, just cancel and reschedule, but the unexpected does happen, and sometimes the options are not as varied as one might hope.
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Mmmm ... just tuned into this (after being away for some years) ....
I did my initial Heli IFR Rating (and then my CFII) with Jet Fleet in Dallas back in '79 &'80 ... they had at that time the only FAA CERTIFIED SP IFR SA341G (stretched) Gazelle in existence.
It was a delight to fly and had a full Sperry Stabilised Autopilot system (very similar to the one as fitted in the Bell 412).
They (Jet Fleet) also had a SFENA Ministab system in a JetRanger (might have been a Longranger ?? memory fails me) which worked differently but achieved the same goal i:e a safe stable IF ride.
First Off ... good luck finding an IFR certified Gazelle on the market. To put one in the hands of a flight school for REAL IFR training will require a certified machine (insurance ??) the upkeep of which will be very pricey and being a ''one off'' will need a good 'Greeny' to keep it working well.
The reality is either the Bell product (modern and updated) or an ''all singing all dancing'' EC130 would be a better choice.
Having said that my advice born of 45 years flying in all sorts of places and flying REAL IFR OPS (in twins) is to forget using a single engine machine and go for a proper IFR equipped twin that will allow training and better still will allow for (some) Public Transport Operations which would benefit the operator.
Good Luck ... Cheers.
AND ... as an addendum .... marginal I/F flight in a complex machine with autopilot really requires a lot of familiarity with A/P mode choice and selection ... I would not recommend using a complex machine for occasional Marginal VFR scud running use will end in tears eventually.
I did my initial Heli IFR Rating (and then my CFII) with Jet Fleet in Dallas back in '79 &'80 ... they had at that time the only FAA CERTIFIED SP IFR SA341G (stretched) Gazelle in existence.
It was a delight to fly and had a full Sperry Stabilised Autopilot system (very similar to the one as fitted in the Bell 412).
They (Jet Fleet) also had a SFENA Ministab system in a JetRanger (might have been a Longranger ?? memory fails me) which worked differently but achieved the same goal i:e a safe stable IF ride.
First Off ... good luck finding an IFR certified Gazelle on the market. To put one in the hands of a flight school for REAL IFR training will require a certified machine (insurance ??) the upkeep of which will be very pricey and being a ''one off'' will need a good 'Greeny' to keep it working well.
The reality is either the Bell product (modern and updated) or an ''all singing all dancing'' EC130 would be a better choice.
Having said that my advice born of 45 years flying in all sorts of places and flying REAL IFR OPS (in twins) is to forget using a single engine machine and go for a proper IFR equipped twin that will allow training and better still will allow for (some) Public Transport Operations which would benefit the operator.
Good Luck ... Cheers.
AND ... as an addendum .... marginal I/F flight in a complex machine with autopilot really requires a lot of familiarity with A/P mode choice and selection ... I would not recommend using a complex machine for occasional Marginal VFR scud running use will end in tears eventually.
Last edited by spinwing; 31st Mar 2022 at 08:36.
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Spinwing
The poster was wanting to use a stretched gazelle for IFR this is prohibited according to the flight manual for IFR flight in a stretch Standard cabin is authorised
The poster was wanting to use a stretched gazelle for IFR this is prohibited according to the flight manual for IFR flight in a stretch Standard cabin is authorised
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md 600 driver ....
Errrr ... IF the OP wants to do SP IFR (in ANY Helicopter) then he need to be certified and so does the machine ... the days of IMC ops OCTA are long gone ... thus the assumption is he will need an appropriately configured machine ... I know the standard machines are only certified for VFR flight ... I did not say any different ... I just pointed out that there WAS a SA341G Stretched Gazelle that WAS certified by the FAA for SP IFR flight that means it was APPROVED, CERTIFIED and thus would have had a Flight Manual Supplement to allow same .... thus you are not quite correct.
The OP also asked if there were any IF experienced pilots that had flown both types ... so I responded as I had flown both types IFR ... what did I say that was incorrect ?
Errrr ... IF the OP wants to do SP IFR (in ANY Helicopter) then he need to be certified and so does the machine ... the days of IMC ops OCTA are long gone ... thus the assumption is he will need an appropriately configured machine ... I know the standard machines are only certified for VFR flight ... I did not say any different ... I just pointed out that there WAS a SA341G Stretched Gazelle that WAS certified by the FAA for SP IFR flight that means it was APPROVED, CERTIFIED and thus would have had a Flight Manual Supplement to allow same .... thus you are not quite correct.
The OP also asked if there were any IF experienced pilots that had flown both types ... so I responded as I had flown both types IFR ... what did I say that was incorrect ?
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md 600 driver ....
Errrr ... IF the OP wants to do SP IFR (in ANY Helicopter) then he need to be certified and so does the machine ... the days of IMC ops OCTA are long gone ... thus the assumption is he will need an appropriately configured machine ... I know the standard machines are only certified for VFR flight ... I did not say any different ... I just pointed out that there WAS a SA341G Stretched Gazelle that WAS certified by the FAA for SP IFR flight that means it was APPROVED, CERTIFIED and thus would have had a Flight Manual Supplement to allow same .... thus you are not quite correct.
The OP also asked if there were any IF experienced pilots that had flown both types ... so I responded as I had flown both types IFR ... what did I say that was incorrect ?
Errrr ... IF the OP wants to do SP IFR (in ANY Helicopter) then he need to be certified and so does the machine ... the days of IMC ops OCTA are long gone ... thus the assumption is he will need an appropriately configured machine ... I know the standard machines are only certified for VFR flight ... I did not say any different ... I just pointed out that there WAS a SA341G Stretched Gazelle that WAS certified by the FAA for SP IFR flight that means it was APPROVED, CERTIFIED and thus would have had a Flight Manual Supplement to allow same .... thus you are not quite correct.
The OP also asked if there were any IF experienced pilots that had flown both types ... so I responded as I had flown both types IFR ... what did I say that was incorrect ?
I just wanted point out a fact from the flight manual that any pilot flying the stretch gazelle should read
I also own a stretched gazelle and in the flight manual supplement 14 for the lengthened cabin it states
limitations
IFR flight is prohibited ,both with and without IFR equipment as per supp 13(IFR flight package )
