Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Can an EC135 do a roll or loop

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Can an EC135 do a roll or loop

Old 20th Jan 2022, 11:12
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Australia
Age: 60
Posts: 339
Received 14 Likes on 11 Posts
CH-53 was rolled and looped from the factory with the approval of USMC for demonstration when the 53 was new , the UH-60 is quite capable of rolling and looping but unlike the 53 which was "owned" by the USMC the US Army which "Own" the UH-60 frown upon such maneuvers.

135 developed from the 105 so more than likely very capable of doing a role and loop but why would you.
Blackhawk9 is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2022, 14:07
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Blackhawk9
CH-53 was rolled and looped from the factory with the approval of USMC for demonstration when the 53 was new , the UH-60 is quite capable of rolling and looping but unlike the 53 which was "owned" by the USMC the US Army which "Own" the UH-60 frown upon such maneuvers.

135 developed from the 105 so more than likely very capable of doing a role and loop but why would you.
Here's the video of the 53.


retoocs is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2022, 21:09
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Home
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by JimEli
can you cite a source for this statement?



From the report:
According to the witness, the helicopter was “in a nose down attitude… far less than 1,000 ft above the ground… [and] rotating around its longitudinal axis.”
Additionally from the report:
“The medic said that the helicopter rolled inverted, perhaps multiple times, and that he and the nurse were “pinned to the ceiling” and internal communication was lost.”



The National Transportation Safety Board traveled to the scene of this accident.

Additional Participating Entities:
Federal Aviation Administration / Flight Standards District Office; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Airbus Helicopters; Grand Prairie, Texas
Air Methods; Greenwood Village, Colorado
German Federal Bureau of Aircraft Accident Investigation; Braunschweig

LifeNet
Air

Location: Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania
Accident Number: ERA22FA105
Date and Time: January 11, 2022, 12:55 Local
Registration: N531LN
Aircraft: EUROCOPTER DEUTSCHLAND GMBH EC 135 P2+
Injuries: 1 Minor, 3 None
Flight Conducted Under: Part 135: Air taxi and commuter - Non-scheduled - Air Medical (Medical emergency)

On January 11, 2022, about 1255 eastern standard time, a Eurocopter EC-135 P2+, N531LN, was substantially damaged when it was involved in an accident in Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania. The airline transport pilot was seriously injured. The two medical crewmembers and the patient were not injured. The helicopter was operated by Air Methods Corporation as a Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations
Part 135 air ambulance flight.

Preliminary Automatic Dependent Surveillance - Broadcast (ADS-B) data revealed that the helicopter departed Chambersburg Hospital Heliport (PA60) about 1205 and was destined for Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia Heliport (9PN2), Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. The track showed the helicopter in a cruise profile on an easterly track about 3,500 ft mean sea level (msl). About 1243, the helicopter descended and then leveled about 2,800 ft msl, then subsequently descended and leveled at 1,500 ft msl, tracking directly toward 9PN2. At 1253:11, the helicopter track depicted a series of heading and altitude excursions. The plots depicted altitudes between 1,700 ft msl and 1,250 ft msl before the target disappeared at 12:53:17.

In a written statement, a witness whose home was directly beneath the helicopter’s flight path said that he was an aviation enthusiast and was familiar with the many helicopters flying to and from area hospitals. He said that his attention was drawn to the accident helicopter because it was “very low and louder than normal” and that the “tone” of the rotors was unfamiliar. According to the witness, the helicopter was “in a nose down attitude… far less than 1,000 ft above the ground… [and] rotating around its longitudinal axis.”

A doorbell camera about 1 mile from the accident site, and approximately beneath the helicopter’s flight path, captured both audio and video of the helicopter’s initial descent from its cruise altitude. The sound could be heard before the helicopter entered the frame. The helicopter’s departure from controlled flight was not captured, as it was blocked by a porch awning on the front of the house. A high-pitched whine was heard, increasing in volume and pitch before the helicopter appeared beneath the awning above the camera in a near vertical, nose-down descent. The helicopter’s angle of descent shallowed as it disappeared behind a tree line. The volume and pitch of the sound continued to increase for a time after the helicopter disappeared and before the sound ultimately faded.

A second witness nearby said that he saw a helicopter “very low…very loud…banked right and left out of control, then appeared to straighten…” before it disappeared from view.

Brief video clips from open-source media outlets showed the helicopter upright, in a steep descent, exhibiting small but rapid changes in each axis (pitch, roll, yaw). A home doorbell camera captured the last second of flight as the helicopter appeared level in the frame, in a slight nose-up attitude, as it impacted the ground, separating the tailboom, then disappeared from view.

The pilot made himself available for interview, but the interview was postponed due to his medical condition.

The flight nurse and flight medic were interviewed by a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) aviation safety inspector. According to the flight medic, the flight was routine, and they were within 10 minutes of landing at 9PN2. He and the flight nurse were out of their seats treating the patient when a loud “bang” was heard, and the helicopter banked sharply right and continued into a right roll. The medic said that the helicopter rolled inverted, perhaps multiple times, and that he and the nurse were “pinned to the ceiling” and internal communication was lost. The helicopter was leveled, the patient was secured, the crewmembers secured themselves in their seats, and they braced for landing.

Following the accident, the flight nurse evacuated the patient, then evacuated the pilot while the medic shut down both engines. The nurse travelled with the patient while the medic travelled with the pilot to area hospitals.

The pilot held an airline transport pilot certificate with ratings for airplane multiengine land and rotorcraft-helicopter, with private pilot privileges for airplane single engine. The pilot’s most recent second-class FAA medical certificate was issued on August 26, 2021.

The operator reported that the pilot had accrued 4,123 total hours of flight experience of which 3,400 hours were in helicopters and 185 hours were in the accident helicopter make and model.

The helicopter was examined at the accident site and all major components were accounted for at the scene. The was a strong odor of fuel and evidence of fuel spillage. The wreckage path was oriented about 150° magnetic and measured about 108 ft long. The initial impact point was in a tree about 40 ft tall, and pieces of freshly broken and cut wood were found beneath it.

The helicopter came to rest on its left side, nearly inverted, against a stone wall. The tailboom was separated at the fuselage and rested between the helicopter and the wall. The fenestron was intact inside its shroud. Fenestron drive and control continuity was confirmed through several breaks which appeared due to overload. The fenestron flexball cable was found wrapped around the main rotor mast. The landing gear was destroyed by impact and the windscreen and chin bubble on the copilot’s (left) side were destroyed; the airframe and cockpit and cabin floors displayed impact fractures, but the cockpit, instrument panel, and cabin area remained largely intact. The cockpit controls were connected and intact. While the yaw control pedals remained attached to their respective control tubes, the floor structure that contained each pedal assembly mount was fractured. The engines and main transmission were secure in their mounts, the main rotor hub was attached to the mast, and the root ends of all four main rotor blades were secure in the hub. Two main rotor blades were wrapped around the mast, one was straight with a chordwise fracture, and the fourth was separated from the hub during recovery. Later, all four blades were cut near their root to facilitate further examination.

The wreckage was recovered to an aircraft recovery facility in Clayton, Delaware, for further examination.

The engines and main transmission were secure in their mounts. Continuity was confirmed from the main rotor head, through the transmission, to the #1 and #2 high speed shafts. The functionality of the freewheeling unit was confirmed.

Cyclic and collective control continuity were confirmed from the controls to the main rotor system. The blue pitch-change link was fractured due to overload, and the yellow link was impact damaged.

Data downloaded from each engine revealed nominal engine performance consistent with the mission profile across the duration of the flight.

Components from the cockpit warning system, electrical and hydraulic components from the autopilot and flight control system, as well as fluid samples, were retained for further examination.
Texas407 is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2022, 11:33
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK and MALTA
Age: 61
Posts: 1,297
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by [email protected]
I agree Bell_ringer, but DB getting on his high horse about a thread where no-one has suggested just going out and trying such manoeuvres seems rather OTT.

My point to DB was that less than 1g in a helicopter or even negative g doesn't lead to the instant mechanical failure he implied - you can get to negative g without aerobatic manoeuvres as you know.
Mr Crab! its been a while since we locked horns however, I like my high horse! You know well that the design certification process will accommodate any turbulence induced negative G. However, as stated by other posters here, Aerobatic manoeuvres are prohibited in all the FMs I have ever looked at. The fuselage is designed to dangle below the rotor in positive G...generally. Stick to the rules and limits because they are there for a reason. As an ex RAF SAR Hero Type I know you love to feel aligned with any form of exciting flying to get your juices flowing. However, I like my helicopter the right way up, compliant and within the limits and I balk at any suggestions of excitement or thrills that are primarily getting derived from chucking the helicopter around the sky with a scant regard for the designers limitations he set in place to keep us safe. Willy can be waved. Chest puffed out and beers downed while the lamp swings but it cuts no ice when the next poor unfortunate pilot inherits an airframe that has been stressed and damaged by morons seeking cheap thrills for fun. Like I said, this is a professional pilots rumour network. Operating beyond the limits in the FM is just not professional. Take care Mr Crab over which side of the line you want to be seen to be! I am ex Army so we are not as bright as your Brill cream Types and thus....we trust and stick to the rules cos our little green brains can't operate outside the box in nasty dangerous parts of the flight enevelope.
DOUBLE BOGEY is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2022, 14:49
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,724
Received 138 Likes on 67 Posts
Geez Guys: Play nice.
albatross is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2022, 19:31
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 10,293
Received 611 Likes on 267 Posts
DB doesn't play nice albatross and, like most people who post bolleaux, reverts to attacking their critic when they are called out on it.

This was an interesting thread up to his post.

For interest DB, I served for 7 years on exchange with the AAC at Middle Wallop instructing on the Lynx and flew with a number of the Blue Eagles display pilots (since I worked alongside them) - I was also allowed to do a display work-up of my own flying loops, rolls, back flips et al - all perfectly legally and above board.

If you are going to argue a point, at least have some knowledge and experience of it first.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2022, 08:35
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Den Haag
Age: 57
Posts: 6,218
Received 317 Likes on 176 Posts
I served for 7 years on exchange with the AAC at Middle Wallop
Your username rather gives that away!
212man is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2022, 08:57
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: South East Asia
Age: 54
Posts: 317
Received 30 Likes on 20 Posts
Can an EC135 do a roll or loop? Maybe one time to save your life, if you are unlucky enough to end up in that unusual attitude.
Can an R44 do a roll or loop?..... well, never mind ... isn't it that in the end The most important factor remains the rigid rotor head with offset flapping hinges.
Agile is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2022, 10:41
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 10,293
Received 611 Likes on 267 Posts
Your username rather gives that away!
Clearly not to everyone
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2022, 18:55
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: South West
Posts: 293
Received 20 Likes on 16 Posts
Originally Posted by Agile
Can an EC135 do a roll or loop? Maybe one time to save your life, if you are unlucky enough to end up in that unusual attitude.
Can an R44 do a roll or loop?..... well, never mind ... isn't it that in the end The most important factor remains the rigid rotor head with offset flapping hinges.
Which the CH53 doesn't have. And with my pedant hat on, a rigid rotor doesn't have a flapping hinge at all (see post #1). Just a very high equivalent virtual hinge. But you are right - a rigid head is the best option.

The critical factor is the ability to develop and sustain enough g to get you round (loop) or the ability to survive the inverted position in a roll (hence teetering head fails).
gipsymagpie is online now  
Old 27th Jan 2022, 10:15
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kammbronn
Posts: 2,121
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts

This one?
diginagain is online now  
Old 27th Jan 2022, 11:58
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The Empire
Age: 50
Posts: 246
Received 13 Likes on 8 Posts
Looping a helicopter is a bit of a pants activity. Pointless, rather silly when we think about the mechanics and aerodynamics and, no tactical application whatsoever. In fact, they aren’t even a loop as such. Dive for speed, pitch and a back flip.

I’ve only done one in a helicopter, under tuition from a manufacturer’s test pilot. Was it fun? Kind of. Was it worthwhile? Not really.

You can “loop” any flying machine - once! The ability to maintain energy, SA, and bring weapons to target whilst manouevring said chopper is far more impressive than a “loop” in a helicopter.

As for a 135, Lynx, CH53, Blackhawk, Seahawk, Puma 407 or such doing a loop - why? They are LiftTard platforms. Why deliver the only weapon you have (The soldiers (or paying passengers)) covered in vomit? Time for some to appreciate hovering or go fly a fixed wing designed to loop. Too many frustrated/failed wanna be Knuckleheads?
Doors Off is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2022, 15:09
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Africa
Posts: 535
Received 9 Likes on 6 Posts
… says the one who has done it!
Hot and Hi is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2022, 15:16
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 10,293
Received 611 Likes on 267 Posts
I don't think anyone has suggested that such a manoeuvre is anything but a display manoeuvre or sales pitch to emphasise agility of the airframe.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2022, 17:40
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 750
Received 24 Likes on 19 Posts
Originally Posted by [email protected]
I don't think anyone has suggested that such a manoeuvre is anything but a display manoeuvre or sales pitch to emphasise agility of the airframe.
And I believe Tommy Thompson with his S-52 loop and Tex Johnson with his Dash 80 roll would agree 100%. Matter of fact, I think when the Boeing CEO asked Tex what was he thinking of when he rolled a "707" in front of industry leaders over Lake Washington, Tex replied, "Selling airplanes." Always enjoyed Charly Zimmerman's sales pitch in his BO105 as well.
wrench1 is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2022, 19:21
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hobe Sound, Florida
Posts: 949
Received 32 Likes on 26 Posts
One of our pilots joined with a flight test engineer to buy an S-52, refurbish it, get it painted as it was at first, a USMC machine flown in the Korean War. Before they flew it, he called Mr. Thompson asking for information as to what to watch out for. That led to asking about the famous roll. I don’t recall what he said about why he did it, but Thompson said that upon landing, someone came up to him and told him that Mr. Sikorsky wanted to see him-NOW. He told our pilot that he thought that Igor was about to fire him. Went on up to Igor’s office worried that he had blown it. Walked in to the office ready to say he was sorry, but Igor began the conversation, asking “ Are you the pilot who just looped the S-52 out there? “. Thompson said yes. Igor then said, “ Can you do it again-I want to get movies of it ?“.
JohnDixson is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2022, 19:43
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Warrington, UK
Posts: 3,832
Received 71 Likes on 27 Posts
Originally Posted by diginagain

This one?
George Carnell?
MightyGem is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2022, 20:28
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 750
Received 24 Likes on 19 Posts
Originally Posted by JohnDixson
Can you do it again-I want to get movies of it ?“.
wrench1 is offline  
Old 28th Jan 2022, 06:11
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Manitoba Canada
Age: 72
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
.

Thanks wrench1 .... that 1949 helicopter loop is the one I referred to earlier.

.
Arnie Madsen is offline  
Old 28th Jan 2022, 09:27
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Den Haag
Age: 57
Posts: 6,218
Received 317 Likes on 176 Posts
Originally Posted by Arnie Madsen
.

Thanks wrench1 .... that 1949 helicopter loop is the one I referred to earlier.

.
I looked him up out of interest https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_E._Thompson

he is credited with teaching Pat Randy - the first woman to fly a helicopter solo. Clearly whoever wrote that hasn’t heard of Hannah Reitsch!
212man is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.