Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Aw139 IFR skill test/prof check

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Aw139 IFR skill test/prof check

Old 15th Dec 2021, 18:12
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Exactly-
I think I'll fly my helicopter in accordance with the RFM and other relevant OEM documentation rather than PPRuNe !!
JB-123 is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2021, 20:59
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Big Smoke
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by JB-123 View Post
From the AW139 RFM
ENGINE TRAINING MODE LIMITATIONS

Selection of Engine Training Mode (OEI TNG) is permitted only for Category A Training and OEI training (for conditions other than CAT A) in OEI simulated conditions.
Can't see a problem with IFR OEI Trg based on the above
What’s interesting is that the OEI Training Mode limitations changed with Rev 22 of the EASA RFM. I’m not sure what’s in the FAA RFM, but the EASA RFM no longer includes the …conditions other than Cat A… bit, and now states:

ENGINE TRAINING MODE LIMITATIONS
Selection of Engine Training Mode (OEl TNG) is permitted only for
Category A Training in OEl simulated conditions.
Yara-ma-yha-who is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2021, 08:43
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: A very long way North
Posts: 443
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes on 2 Posts
Don’t fly the 139 either, but as has been asked before but does the RFM (or even Leonardo directly) state a height above which the OEI trg switch must be selected back to normal? What trg benefit is there to be gained by keeping it in OEI above that height all the way round the circuit to the final approach? Once any profile has been flown, diagnosis done and first set of ECL actions completed could the OEI switch not just be deselected? “Continue with the rest of the checklist as if still OEI, but I’m just going to reselect AEO, ready, 3, 2, 1 etc”
You’re not really gaining much climbing all the way to eg 3000’ OEI, all the important stuff is done well before then, by that point tends to be down into subsequent actions, considerations etc. Fly the pattern AEO, then just before top of drop, “no drills required, reselecting OEI for the approach, ready, 3, 2, 1 etc”.
PlasticCabDriver is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2021, 12:52
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: N of 49th parallel
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I totally agree that the language used by the OP has been imprecise at best. As others have stated, the RFM will provide the appropriate limitations that have to be followed - end of debate. Post #22 above seems to indicate that this is a non-issue. If you are CAT-A training then you can use the Training switch.
On top of that comes the "risk management" element that every single trainer should be aware of, so limit flight in simuated OEI to those times absolutely required in order to comply with the flight check schedule (PC or OPC).
Finally, if conducting checks in EASA land or UK you are required to use a simulator if one is "available". As far as I know there are a number of available simulators
Apate is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2021, 14:05
  #25 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: On the green bit near the blue wobbly stuff
Posts: 671
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by JB-123 View Post
Exactly-
I think I'll fly my helicopter in accordance with the RFM and other relevant OEM documentation rather than PPRuNe !!
Of course - no argument. But if the documentation isnt 100% explicit, (as in this case about what is regarded as an acceptable environment for Cat A OEI training) you can ask for clarification from the people in charge of this. I did so , and am sharing the answer. Do what you like with the info!
Non-PC Plod is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2021, 18:18
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: CYQS
Age: 47
Posts: 321
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well as was stated earlier, it doesn;t even reference Cat B, so the entire flight, takeoff to landing is Cat A. No biggie. As long as the publication states the relevant limitations, and you follow those, then you are good, doesn't matter what anyone SAY as long as it is not in the regulated portion of the mentioned RFM.

CHeers
H.
Winnie is offline  
Old 17th Dec 2021, 14:52
  #27 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: On the green bit near the blue wobbly stuff
Posts: 671
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
A flight can only meet Cat A requirements if you : meet the CAT A Weight/Altitude/Temp requirements; the engine power assurance check is acceptable; you fly a Cat A profile for T/O & landing.
If you dont meet all the above requirements, then you must be Cat B, so its not true by a long shot that "all flights are Cat A"!

On closer inspection of the RFM, I take back what I said before about a lack of clarity. On page S12 L-11, it quite clearly says:

Note The training procedures may be carried out up to the end of Take off path (ie 1000' ATS (300m) and to the completion of landing / balked landing.
No performance information ( distances and climb gradients) are provided for the applicable training WAT weights, therefore the continued Takeoff, rejected takeoff, continued landing and balked landing distances presented in this supplement are NOT applicable for training procedures.


So it categorically states that you cannot use OEI training after 1000 ft, which may interfere with IFR missed approach procedure training ( depending on how you do it.)
Non-PC Plod is offline  
Old 17th Dec 2021, 15:31
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: yes
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Non-PC Plod View Post
...but I am concerned there is a danger that this will focus the examiner's attention on the PI at a time when he has other things to look at ( outside for example if the check is simulated IMC).
Just curious, how do you determine the PI has met the standards otherwise?
JimEli is offline  
Old 17th Dec 2021, 15:49
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 654
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hi Non-PC
Thanks for the additional RFM extract, that would have made offering an appropriate comment rather easier for us, which is why some of us were asking where the RFM tells you to switch off the training mode, because Cat A performance does not finish at 1000ft above the heliport, it continues up to MSA where you still require OEI 50ft/min RoC.
I'm also not sure that anyone said "all flights are Cat A", I think what was said was, if you are operating Cat A then all the flight is Cat A.

I am rather surprised that AW limit it in this way, as you say, it makes it difficult to do realistic training and testing. Unless I have missed something (quite possible), the EC135, EC145 which I spend my time on, do not have any such limitation and the training mode is, I understand, used to produce the numbers for the graphs. The only difference being that the Nr at which the training mode is automatically aborted is reduced and the training mode represents a slightly sub-spec engine (5% I seem to remember) which is why the real aircraft OEI performance should be better than you see in training.

Cheers
TeeS
TeeS is offline  
Old 17th Dec 2021, 16:57
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Non-PC Plod View Post
A flight can only meet Cat A requirements if you : meet the CAT A Weight/Altitude/Temp requirements; the engine power assurance check is acceptable; you fly a Cat A profile for T/O & landing.
If you dont meet all the above requirements, then you must be Cat B, so its not true by a long shot that "all flights are Cat A"!

On closer inspection of the RFM, I take back what I said before about a lack of clarity. On page S12 L-11, it quite clearly says:

Note The training procedures may be carried out up to the end of Take off path (ie 1000' ATS (300m) and to the completion of landing / balked landing.
No performance information ( distances and climb gradients) are provided for the applicable training WAT weights, therefore the continued Takeoff, rejected takeoff, continued landing and balked landing distances presented in this supplement are NOT applicable for training procedures.


So it categorically states that you cannot use OEI training after 1000 ft, which may interfere with IFR missed approach procedure training ( depending on how you do it.)
It states no such thing
It says "may be carried out"
The next sentence is a statement that the Training Procedures have not been certified re "continued Takeoff, rejected takeoff, continued landing and balked landing distances"
So don't rely on / use them when using Training Mode
I could start a whole new thread re Cat A and people's complete lack of understanding of the same
However CAT A Training procedures can be used CAT A, which by definition includes CAT A En-Route
[I think we should stop now!]
JB-123 is offline  
Old 17th Dec 2021, 22:20
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: N of 49th parallel
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
[I think we should stop now!]

Yes. Let's move on and leave Non-PC in his rather strange world of confusion! The rest of us will simply follow the RFM rules and apply some old fashioned common sense.
Apate is offline  
Old 18th Dec 2021, 08:38
  #32 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: On the green bit near the blue wobbly stuff
Posts: 671
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Dont worry, I am not confused - I have spoken face to face with the experts who wrote the RFM, and I have found the reference which they included to make their intentions clear.
My conscience is clear - I have shared the info. Interpret it how you like. Thread ended for me.
Non-PC Plod is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2021, 13:25
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Cornwall
Age: 74
Posts: 1,307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Just an idea but as an old-school TRE I had to conduct OEI training by throttling back one engine with the aircraft at a minimum of 90% or RTOW. In aircraft like the Bo105 that got to be a little too interesting at times but the S61 wasn't a lot better. Conducting that kind of exercise below 1000 feet could be considered to be foolhardy these days but I wonder if leaving the OEI Training Switch on after a go-around and during the landing phase below 1000ft would be supplemented by throttling back above that height to provide a realistic look-see at the aircraft performance and how it deteriorates at high MSAs. Just a thought. The regulators might not like it but then again they can get a woke-ish.
Geoffersincornwall is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.