American NVG Operations Question
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American NVG Operations Question
Hi,
In a discussion with another pilot about NVG's. We like them. Where we can't agree is that I think there's no FAA regulation that says the NVG's have to be used, and doesn't specify any conditions in which they would be required. The regs say that if you have them down in VMC, upon entering IMC you have to flip them out of the way; you can't stay aided in IMC.
That's where it says you can't use them, but I don't think it says there's any condition in which you have to use them. I think the FAA's position is that they're a powerful safety tool to be used at the pilot's discretion, except they can't be used in IMC. Other than that I think the FAA has no ache if you keep them flipped up all the time. PIC prerogative. Use 'em if you want.
He says different, but I neither of us can prove it. Can any air lawyers here tell me the regulation that proves I'm wrong?
Thanks,
K.
In a discussion with another pilot about NVG's. We like them. Where we can't agree is that I think there's no FAA regulation that says the NVG's have to be used, and doesn't specify any conditions in which they would be required. The regs say that if you have them down in VMC, upon entering IMC you have to flip them out of the way; you can't stay aided in IMC.
That's where it says you can't use them, but I don't think it says there's any condition in which you have to use them. I think the FAA's position is that they're a powerful safety tool to be used at the pilot's discretion, except they can't be used in IMC. Other than that I think the FAA has no ache if you keep them flipped up all the time. PIC prerogative. Use 'em if you want.
He says different, but I neither of us can prove it. Can any air lawyers here tell me the regulation that proves I'm wrong?
Thanks,
K.
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AFAIK, you are probably not going to find the answer in the FARs. Any requirements for "must use" would be covered under the Ops, M or T-specs, or LOA, associated with the particular operation. I.e., there is no one, overarching answer. The answer will vary from op to op.
These references are from 2013, not sure there are any newer, but they do call out the relevant FARs and other guidance:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...N_8900.237.pdf
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gsla...5375/NVGS2.pdf
These references are from 2013, not sure there are any newer, but they do call out the relevant FARs and other guidance:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...N_8900.237.pdf
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gsla...5375/NVGS2.pdf
AFAIK, the only time NVG use is "required" is when performing an operation for the purpose of meeting part 61 experience requirements. Otherwise, an operator's GOM will stipulate when NVGs must be used.
"NVGs are used as an aid to night flight during visual meteorological conditions (VMC), and operators are not to use NVGs during inadvertent instrument meteorological conditions (IIMC). This means that operators must comply with visual flight rules (VFR) weather minimums during a flight. For air carrier operations, these weather minimums are prescribed in the air carrier’s OpSpecs. The use of NVGs will not change or modify any of the existing regulations."
https://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v...04_007_004.htm
I'm with JimEli on this - using NVG on crappy night to get the required visual references at the end of an instrument approach can make the difference between getting in and not and means there is no faff reverting to NVG flight in that transition from IFR to VFR.
I always flew with my goggles set up so I could look through them or look under them at the instruments - night coastal searches in crap weather often meant going in an out of scuddy cloud and then back to visual - very disorientating in the dark but being able to gain visual references quickly made a huge difference.
I always flew with my goggles set up so I could look through them or look under them at the instruments - night coastal searches in crap weather often meant going in an out of scuddy cloud and then back to visual - very disorientating in the dark but being able to gain visual references quickly made a huge difference.
Well... FWIW, just be careful who you admit that to.
"NVGs are used as an aid to night flight during visual meteorological conditions (VMC), and operators are not to use NVGs during inadvertent instrument meteorological conditions (IIMC). This means that operators must comply with visual flight rules (VFR) weather minimums during a flight. For air carrier operations, these weather minimums are prescribed in the air carrier’s OpSpecs. The use of NVGs will not change or modify any of the existing regulations."
https://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v...04_007_004.htmAnd your point is?
And, since we’re discussing the characteristics of the great FAA NVG regulations, let’s split some hairs, because, you know the FAA will...
Did you know, the FAA created a situation where a pilot could meet the experience requirements for NVG flight with passengers, but not unaided night flight? This situation could exist because night currency is based upon 90-days, while NVG currency is based upon calendar months (all in the same section even, 61.57(b)(1) vs. 61.57(f)(1)).
Sounds perfectly reasonable, doesn’t it?
Did you know, the FAA created a situation where a pilot could meet the experience requirements for NVG flight with passengers, but not unaided night flight? This situation could exist because night currency is based upon 90-days, while NVG currency is based upon calendar months (all in the same section even, 61.57(b)(1) vs. 61.57(f)(1)).
Sounds perfectly reasonable, doesn’t it?
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https://fsims.faa.gov/WDocs/8900.1/V...04_CHG_22A.htm
And in Paragraph C: "NVGs are used as an aid to night flight during visual meteorological conditions (VMC), and operators are not to use NVGs during inadvertent instrument meteorological conditions (IMC)."
Too busy to stay around long, sorry!
May one interject and point everyone in the direction of practicality and pragmatism. Instead of searching around for a rule or regulation which in my experience leads people down the path of poor airmanship and a more stressful life just use judgement and common sense.
NVG are an aid to visual flight. Generally helpful in conditions of VMC and acceptable light levels. If you can make out features on the ground use them. If you’re IMC and can’t see anything, don’t use them.
Let’s not get wrapped around the axle about something that’s quite straight forward.
LZ
NVG are an aid to visual flight. Generally helpful in conditions of VMC and acceptable light levels. If you can make out features on the ground use them. If you’re IMC and can’t see anything, don’t use them.
Let’s not get wrapped around the axle about something that’s quite straight forward.
LZ
Is this the Cockpit Lighting Modification STC? If so it does not address the operational side of NVG use. Perhaps post the STC number? There is a limitation as I know of several individuals who got cited for IMC use under googles. Unless things have changed??
Last edited by wrench1; 18th Sep 2021 at 02:05.
It would be a shame if the US regulations did prohibit use if IMC.
I agree with Crabs statement about using the goggles while IMC but flirting with VMC especially if it is desired to transition to VMC. They make this safer although you have to be very aware of the limitations such as thinking you are VMC when you are not. Even if IMC but able to see, while not using the goggles as prime reference, you are much better prepared for a serious emergency requiring immediate descent or landing.
If I’m in deep cloud enroute IMC I do not have the goggles down but they are on my head ready to go. I’d rather not have them on for comfort….
I agree with Crabs statement about using the goggles while IMC but flirting with VMC especially if it is desired to transition to VMC. They make this safer although you have to be very aware of the limitations such as thinking you are VMC when you are not. Even if IMC but able to see, while not using the goggles as prime reference, you are much better prepared for a serious emergency requiring immediate descent or landing.
If I’m in deep cloud enroute IMC I do not have the goggles down but they are on my head ready to go. I’d rather not have them on for comfort….
FYI: As I no longer have access to these docs did some more checking. The NVG IMC statements I remember were either listed in A050 or the GOM depending on operator. However, it appears the original A050 templates have been revised due to conflict issues with other OpSpec sections (e.g. A021) and the IMC statements were dropped in favor of straight VFR visual minimums whether aided or unaided with the IFR requirements separate. Was told the concern with NVG and IMC was that some goggle systems were capable of seeing through light fog and rain that could lead to entry into total IMC. That is the reason behind the current guidance above to drop the goggles if enter IIMC and follow those procedures. Couldn't find an original A050 template but did find an older A051 template (airplane NVG) that had the no IFR limitation I remember shown below.
(c) The certificate holder is authorized to use NVGs only to aid night flight during VMC
and must not use NVGs during instrument meteorological conditions (IMC). The certificate
holder must comply with VFR weather minimums during ANVG-aided flight and must adhere to
the weather minimums prescribed in these operations specifications and all applicable FAA
regulations.
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...N_8900.388.pdf
(c) The certificate holder is authorized to use NVGs only to aid night flight during VMC
and must not use NVGs during instrument meteorological conditions (IMC). The certificate
holder must comply with VFR weather minimums during ANVG-aided flight and must adhere to
the weather minimums prescribed in these operations specifications and all applicable FAA
regulations.
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...N_8900.388.pdf
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
I'm with JimEli on this - using NVG on crappy night to get the required visual references at the end of an instrument approach can make the difference between getting in and not and means there is no faff reverting to NVG flight in that transition from IFR to VFR.
I always flew with my goggles set up so I could look through them or look under them at the instruments - night coastal searches in crap weather often meant going in an out of scuddy cloud and then back to visual - very disorientating in the dark but being able to gain visual references quickly made a huge difference.
I always flew with my goggles set up so I could look through them or look under them at the instruments - night coastal searches in crap weather often meant going in an out of scuddy cloud and then back to visual - very disorientating in the dark but being able to gain visual references quickly made a huge difference.
1. Looking outside through the goggles
2. Looking outside not through the goggles - (the only way you can discern the colours of obstacle lights, nav lights etc, and the only way you are going to get good peripheral vision cues when T/O & LDG in an environment where you can use white light, or you have a lot of cultural /helipad lighting.
3. Looking inside at the instruments (not through the goggles)
A rule which requires you to take your hands off the controls and lift the goggles when you are reacting to IEIC is a very blunt instrument to deal with the problem of knowing when to transition onto instruments. Its the same problem in the day. The answer is better training in experiencing marginal conditions and decision-making about when to abort. I dont think taking action against someone for leaving their goggles down whilst flying in IMC actually improves safety.
Non PC Plod - yes completely I agree, I wear my goggles so I can achieve all 3 scans without moving them or taking my hands off the controls - if I end up solid IMC then yes I'll pop the goggles up.
Mixing white light with NVG is also very straightforward despite some who firmly believe it should be one or the other.
Mixing white light with NVG is also very straightforward despite some who firmly believe it should be one or the other.
