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Flying loads out from between power lines

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Flying loads out from between power lines

Old 16th Sep 2021, 08:22
  #21 (permalink)  
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perhaps he should concentrate on one thing at a time instead of strapping in and talking to the camera - aviate, navigate communicate
Except that's not what he did. In the video linked to in the OP, the voice over is done during editing. No talking to the camera while strapped in.
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Old 16th Sep 2021, 09:49
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Originally Posted by JimEli
Did anyone catch the overtemp on start?
What time? I don't see the FLI going anywhere to limit
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Old 16th Sep 2021, 11:39
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Ha! If you baulk at that, the French dangle a basket with people in it down between the wires. Admittedly it's from a twin engined 135 and Airbus UK (Capt Ormshaw) did extensive trials to confirm the max weight to allow a vertical climb, translation sideways and vertical descent to put the basket on the ground safely following an engine failure. Now that would focus the mind. Anyone got a video of that?

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Old 16th Sep 2021, 18:00
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
But he has none at all for extended periods
Quite.

This is nuts compared to the utility stuff I have been involved in as the ground guy with Bond/PLM-PDG/Specialist on a variety of jobs in the Highlands across the last 35 years. I cannot imagine why one would not organise to avoid having the aircraft remain in the hover that long. All that ratchet strap stuff: why would you not have a quick release system for that retainer? Benefits the ground guy too because he is working at height. Bonkers.

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Old 17th Sep 2021, 18:04
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OK, but it seems the power lines are not live. The thread title makes it sound so dramatic. If the lines were live, I guess that would add some "tension".

Surprised that the ground crew (on the poles), at least some of them, don't wear gloves nor eye or ear protection.

Last edited by Hot and Hi; 17th Sep 2021 at 18:17.
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Old 18th Sep 2021, 05:59
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Yes, it's a very macho version of working safely - looks great and heroic on video right up until someone ends up in hospital or worse.
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Old 18th Sep 2021, 15:31
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Yes, it's a very macho version of working safely - looks great and heroic on video right up until someone ends up in hospital or worse.

Im sure if you had been tasked with that work in the military you would have jumped at it.
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Old 19th Sep 2021, 09:04
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Im sure if you had been tasked with that work in the military you would have jumped at it.
in a twin-engined helicopter, below AUM for OEI hover and with a sensible plan for emergencies or failures - yes.

Taking risks like this to save lives or fight wars is very, very different from doing it to make a few quid because safety is the easiest cost to cut.
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Old 19th Sep 2021, 12:00
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So what's your take on this?
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Old 19th Sep 2021, 17:04
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Practice Engine Failure - GO...........
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Old 19th Sep 2021, 18:56
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[QUOTE=rudestuff;11113467]So what's your take on this?
Here a video
that shows crews doing live line work which is normally only done one the outside phases. It's completely different work than lifting things out next to the center phase of the power lines. I do question parts of this work as the video showed a crane on track next to where he was lifting things. Why not take it out on a rail car.
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Old 20th Sep 2021, 05:25
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Again, the flying skills are good but they are only using single engined helicopters because it is cheap, not because it is safe. The boss at the beginning acknowledges the aircraft is almost permanently in the HV curve - who agreed the safety case for that?

Yes, there are other failures that would doom any helicopter regardless of the number of engines but why tempt fate? Oh yes, to make money - which seems to be an excuse for disregarding many people's safety and easy to 'justify' until you are on the wrong end of an accident that didn't need to happen.

I've managed nearly 40 years of some challenging flying, generally by not putting myself in a place where I didn't have a plan B if something went wrong - not always, but when I did it was for a very good reason (lifesaving for example) - and then with limited exposure time.

Spending your working day knowing that you might not walk away if a failure or loss of attention happens might be fine for some - I just don't need to be that macho.
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Old 20th Sep 2021, 07:33
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And yet, how many accidents and fatalities actually happen each year and how many of those are related to the engine?
Considering the number of hours flown - precious few.
Yes singles are cheaper to run, but if they were being wrecked often and crew lost then it would rapidly become more expensive for the operators.
It is the nature of any commercial venture to only change once cost justifies it.
The reality of risk, in this environment, is that it extends far beyond engine reliability.

There are trade-offs in every environment and safety is never first, more often it is a strong third.
!00% safety does not exist, and if it were the absolute requirement, no one would ever venture outdoors.
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Old 20th Sep 2021, 08:38
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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It is the nature of any commercial venture to only change once cost justifies it.
True but it is the mind of the businessman that prefers to look at the profit of the cheaper option against the vast costs of having an accident.

A famous quote - I think from aviation - If you think safety is expensive, try having an accident.

I've been lucky enough not to have to continually take the risks that these pilots clearly accept as the day to day reality of having a job - in safety terms I think they call that risk normalisation and risky shift.

All activity carries risk - it is just how much and for how long you are willing to expose yourself to it that varies between individuals.

How does that other saying go? There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are very few old, bold pilots.
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Old 20th Sep 2021, 11:42
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Having done line construction work for a number of years, and seen the introduction of a number of safety organizations and more modern aircraft, not much has really changed in the Powerline construction world

We still use the same methods of moving the linemen. just added some HEC regs
Class A HEC Lineman on Skid or Platform
Class B HEC Lineman underslung
Class D Hoist Ops with Cat A Twin

As a pilot is the risk factor more or less being in a twin or a single in the HV curve. Simple if I have a true CAT A Twin.
Is the risk more or less in that twin trying to get into the tight spaces required to perform line maintenance. Most certainly has an increased risk factor with the larger aircraft.
Unless it’s 345KV plus probably not going to happen so we will used Class B HEC or Class D Hoist.

From a Lineman's perspective, Is it riskier to sit 100 foot tethered below a Bell 429 or EC145 etc for 8 hours a day while the pilot struggles with vertical reference mid span work or be on the skid or platform of a 500 for 8 hours a day which has easier references for the pilot. the risk is higher for the aircraft next to the wires however mid span vertical reference can be a serious workout for pilot and linemen. These all carry there own inherent risks.

As far as pulling in new line which is Class C loads the aircraft of choice is still the 500 due to side pull capability. The more modern astar has a side pull kit but again it’s too much aircraft in a tight area. Could you make this safer by using a Cat A twin and a headache ball. Yes. Downside with the headache ball and long line is being so far above the dollys or blocks that you may struggle getting the rope where it needs to go or damage the insulators with the headache ball.At this point in time you would probably be removed from the project.
Have accidents occurred with the 500 pulling in ropes. Plenty such as ropes hitting main and tail rotor blades, fuel starvation from the pulling angle, hitting towers with the aircraft, mid span needles snapping and recoiling back at the aircraft etc.

We can all agree, no individual or company wants to be involved in a accident or incident. Just like anything else in life the safest way would just be not to fly. Park all the machines and stay home. But we are aviation professionals in our different industry’s and have chosen those paths. We can all weigh the pros and cons of what we do and nobody is forced. At least here in the US if you don’t like what you do there are plenty of other flying jobs that will satisfy your personal risk assessment

I believe over the next 10-15 years the utility industry will continue to evolve alongside everything the drones will do. Most power company’s have gone full circle and are now again buying there own medium twins for line patrols leaving only construction and maintenance to contractors. Introduction of the black hawks is pushing the Hueys out and seeing a lot more chinooks popping up also taking over the heavy loads with the Cranes.

At some point in time underslung Human External Cargo will require a CAT A twin. Will any of this have positive safety results? At least on the risk assessment paper on the safety guys desk it’ll look good..
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Old 20th Sep 2021, 13:09
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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There's a reason the 500 is the aircraft of choice. It's also insurable in the most litigious country on earth. I'm sure someone's done the maths and come to the conclusion that an engine failure in an agile single is less likely than a wire strike in a larger twin. And cheaper of course.
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Old 20th Sep 2021, 14:12
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They've done the maths, all right. Because at the end of the day it all comes down to cost of insurance. That's what makes it affordable/unaffordable. And underwriters are very good at math. Very, very good.

Actual risk to human life doesn't actually come into play. You can always find people willing, more than willing, indeed training their entire life to get a job like this. Not just happy with the risk, but ecstatic about it. There is nothing more heroic than beating the odds and being better than everyone else. Especially in 'murica. And I write that in all seriousness as an American. Helicopter lineworker? Helicopter live line op's? Can't think of too many things that top that on the pinnacles of skill and daring. People are lining up for it, if you'll pardon the pun About the only thing sexier than that is being a pilot for the 160th, but then people might actually be shooting at you!

Property damage doesn't matter, either. Ball up a few helicopters? Bang up some power lines? No problem, insurance will pay. Because again it's all about the insurance. Underwriters don't mind losses as long as they are making money. And they don't want to price themselves out of a lucrative market. And there's little danger to the public or risk of other property damage given how there's very little in and around most of these sort of power lines. So it's all very low visibility stuff, and accidents can actually happen without too much in the way of media exposure.

No doubt it's rough on the families of the pilots and lineworkers, but the families always say "They were doing something they loved."

Probably the only real sin is an accident that causes a power interruption, and thus interrupts the flow of public utility revenue.

It's a good bet that only way you are going to see twins in this job in America is if it becomes a regulatory requirement, because twins are likely to make the entire process unaffordable. Insurance rates will substantially increase given the much higher hull values involved, because it's probably not engine failures that are causing the vast majority of accidents. Power companies will abandon helicopters at that point and develop other technology.

And remember this is the real world, not military or public service. In the latter there is an infinite tank of money that allows things to be as safe as it is possible to be and still get the job done. Or maybe not get the job done! No insurance to be paid. Ball up that big twin? No problem, the taxpayers will get you another. The real world runs on a substantially different cost/risk basis. The economic "laws of physics" are different, very different! You can't expect the things you did or didn't do in the military to necessarily apply, no matter how "correct" you think they are.

Now if you want to talk about something really dangerous, how about night helicopter crop dusting?
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Old 20th Sep 2021, 15:06
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I couldn't agree more. There was a time when I would have cut my own arm off for that job.
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Old 20th Sep 2021, 15:39
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I am one of the primary instructors for Pacific Gas and Electric for their "Flying in the Wire Environment" class, (the largest utility provider in California and in the top 10 in the US). I have been teaching this class weekly for the last year. The risk in this type of work is NOT the engine failure, it is wire strikes or mis-judging distance. Our class revolves around CRM and having two persons up front, not two engines.

For those spouting the "single engine is bad theory", how many engine failures have occurred in the past 25 years in the wire environment vs other incidents....? I'll wait.....
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Old 20th Sep 2021, 16:26
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Powerline Construction and Maintenance is very different from your basic picking up a pole and setting it somewhere else. I do it on a day to basis and have for a lot of years. There are a lot of moving parts where you operate your helicopter as a bucket truck for the linemen in fairly crappy environments.
Nobody ever plans to go out and have an accident however over the past 30 years
There have been a lot of incidents accidents due to both aircraft failures and pilot / line crew failures in the industry.

I could make this list extremely long but just to name a few,
A good friend of mine Paul Ruppert who everybody flying the Powerline industry would know as he was 20,000 line pilot for Air2, Wilson, Rogers, Source and Rotorblade died in Madison Wisconsin in a 500 engine failure 5 years back on American Transmission Property on his way to move two linemen HEC
In California Brim 600N had an Engine Out on Utility property in the last year. Same weekend Mountain Power 600N had engine out on Utility Property in Thompson Falls Montana returning from HEC flight. Haverfield are the pioneers along with a few others of this type of work and probably where you can get the best training and actual energized work experience. They have 24 MD500s, BK 117s, Hueys and Blackhawks. Over the years a lot of **** has happened unfortunately. Their Chief Pilot had a very serious engine out some time back that left the lineman dead unfortunately. This year a 500 doing board work in New Jersey ended up in the trees. Three years ago a 500 in West Virginia had an engine out pulling rope, and last year 500 had an engine out in New York returning from HEC flight. I’ve seen plenty low end governor failures over the years for Air2, Winco, Wilson in ****ty spots bringing in hot cross arms etc that could have ended extremely poorly but good work from the pilots and linemen got it down flat and needed an A&P rather than a NTSB report
I have seen less incidents accidents from Twins in the Powerline world however that is just due to the number of hours flown. Most Recently I recall a Duke Energy 429 in North Carolina go in the trees and in New York a Twin Star from Andalar Aviation hanging upside down from a 230KV with pilots and linemen jumping 100feet to there death. Just as common are crew failures such as the 600 in Pennsylvania that the linemen forgot to safety the fiber when clipping and fell out of the block on the skid. Rolling the aircraft killing both linemen. Or the lineman in Puerto Rico riding on a grapple hook rather then clipping into the AFrames and falling a hundred foot or so.
Plenty accidents from pilots too, hitting structures, wires etc and sometimes just really tragic accidents such as the 530 in Iowa that the needle fractured when pulling and took out the rotor system.

To expand a little further I have seen some crazy stuff from the heavys on construction projects, with two to three pilots up front wiping out wires, releasing poles before they are tied off etc. The mentality that’s involved in setting a 10,000lbs pole in the mountains is very different than that of a logging or fire mentality.

As a community we don’t seem to qualify our candidates correctly to work in the environment. Most utilities now have an audit similar to PGE that you need to hold a dummy 6 off the ground in a 10 foot circle and touch different elevated cones with the dummy and a certain hour requirement. Then your good to go…..
now that pilots goes off to his first job hanging marker balls at 1000feet AGL over moving water or snow or anything mid span and can’t figure out why he can’t do it and the linemen send him down the road.
At that early stage he/she would probably be fine for moving men and materials to/ from the towers over solid terrain.

I agree CRM for every worker is extremely important especially with Helicopter companies that fly external linemen or observers ie work for the contractors, where you work with different individuals every day. There’s nothing worse than showing up to an LZ and having to show your lineman how to put his fly harness on.

Last edited by hookes_joint; 20th Sep 2021 at 17:26.
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