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Irish Air Corps SAR bid machine costs

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Irish Air Corps SAR bid machine costs

Old 30th Apr 2021, 16:57
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“ SAR is no place for amateurs or turf wars”

Thats this whole discussion in a nut shell. What has developed is a concerted effort by the retired Officer Corp to push an agenda with the political backing of like minded public representative.

Enough said



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Old 30th Apr 2021, 17:13
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Originally Posted by Declan275
I’ve mostly tried to stay out of the ongoing SAR debate except to try to clear up points that I can on a different Twitter thread, mostly relating to the fit of the current 139s. I’ve done so because I have friends on both sides of the argument and on one hand don’t want to see anyone having to relocate for work and on the other hand would want to see it happen for the people I know in Bal. Either way, discussions about SAR in Ireland rarely end well.

I think the remarks above are not entirely fair to the organisation or the people in it. Some of the issues raised are from well before my time, so you’re talking quarter of a century plus. I’m sure all can recognise that a legal team acting on behalf of the department are not going to be representative of the culture of the Air Corps itself. The Casa incident and the AW139 delivery flight are both used as CRM case studies internally, my understanding is that the 139 one also has an Italian incident report but I could be wrong on that. The Cessna accident in Clonbollogue is notable, because it marked the last nail in the coffin of the ‘pre Flight Safety section’ culture in the Air Corps, and that was already very much in its last legs. The AIII that was lost had a control issue not an engine failure, but again that was before my time so🤷‍♂️.

It’s worth saying that the culture and practices described above don’t match at all what I experienced in over twenty years in the place. ‘Give it a go’ and ‘cover ups’ would just have been impossible given the regulations and organisational structures in place, even if any rogue operator had been of a mind to try it.

For clarity, I do believe that either organisation be it CHC or the Air Corps have the requisite skill sets to carry out SAR on the East coast. I’m sure the Air Corps must have a sustainability plan for it because I simply can’t see the proposal getting passed the GOC otherwise. That will be a policy decision by Govt though, no doubt influenced by the Commission on Defence, not anyone in the AC.

Where all of us have more or less gone wrong though is to see this as a binary thing - Air Corps or CHC. If the AC are told no, you’re not involved in RW SAR and it goes to tender, another operator may win and they may make their case on the basis of a 139 or 189 ( or anything else), especially if the price tag is weight heavily in the final decision. If they then hoover up a bunch of AC guys to staff it, what then? Are they still not up to scratch?

I’ll bow out at that, but I think going back over such a long period of time and imagining things are the same now doesn’t help anyone and it reduces public trust in a potential provider. There’s some good cases being made about a civilian run SAR, but they're being done by putting a positive case forward, not slating the Air Corps for stuff that happened before most of the current members joined.
There is no need for anyone in Balldonnell to relocate if the Air Corps should not get a SAR base. The Air Corps already have a staffing issue to cover the roles they are obligated to provide, this has been well documented over the last number of years.

The incidents and accidents that were previously mentioned may or may not be factual but outside of the Air Corps we will never know, as the Air Corps is not subject to EASA regulation or Accident or Incident investigation by the AAIU.

The Air Corps have not conducted AWSAR for 20 years so the Air Corps should make public there reasoning where they state they have the prerequisite skills required in order to conduct AWSAR.

Regarding a sustainability plan, how many staff members will leave again once commercial air travel restarts. What sustainability plan had the Air Corps in place when the EAS had staffing issues, or was it a case of just let CHCI & Medevac 112 clean up the mess?

Should the Air Corps believe they have the required skill set, let them enter a competitive tender process along with any of the other operators competing for the contract, however they should be required to hold an AOC & Part 145 so they are subject to regulation and oversight as any other operator.

The questions people should be asking is why are the Air Corps so he’ll bent on regaining SAR, when they do not provide the service the should be providing to the Army or Navy.
Why they could only initially provide one helicopter for the wild fires last weekend, where two private helicopters were made available almost immediately.
Why a top cover aircraft was not available the night of the R116 crash.
Where is the coat analysis to show that military SAR is allegedly cheaper?



Last edited by norunway; 30th Apr 2021 at 21:53.
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Old 30th Apr 2021, 18:12
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So how often have the IAC been requested for SAR top cover and how often have then been able to respond? When they did not what were the given reasons? Top cover is also a matter they are pushing forcefully where the U.K., Spain and Netherlands all have coast guard top cover as opposed to military.

Also with reference to requirement for an AOC ATO etc they are required by law, debated here before, to have exactly those functions for HEMS. German Bundespolizei have all EASA functions in place and licensed crew as they will tell you under EU law it is required. But this then begs a question as to how the authority in Ireland allow this to continue?

If the IAC wish to resume SAR it will cost more than a civilian provider already approved as there cannot be anyone still flying with SAR experience after all they do not do SAR and are not a declared asset. To train new crew in all weather SAR to cover the task takes time under training and mentorship which cannot come internally as a result. Who will be captain as nobody would meet civilian SAR or even oil and gas command criteria experience wise. There is a reason for that. To be a civilian SAR captain requires several years as a copilot learning all weather SAR.

We all know Leonardo are great at sales, so believing their pitch for cost is naive. Ask how much the FISAR and UKSAR 189’s actually cost...

Crewing issues mentioned, quite publicly the charity funded hems operation stepped in at some time not too long ago. So as mentioned they won’t have the capacity to man a 24 hour SAR operation even if there is a significant recruitment drive.



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Old 30th Apr 2021, 21:50
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AWSAR will give Junior Air Corps pilots flying experience.

AWSAR will give Junior Air Corps pilots the required experience they need to deploy overseas, is one avenue they are pushing as justification to try and get AWSAR back.
Has anyone told them that AWSAR flying is one of the most demanding roles a pilot can do in a helicopter, and they are using it as some kind of stepping stone for Junior Pilots (majority of whom have less than 500hrs) to gain flying experience to deploy overseas.
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Old 30th Apr 2021, 22:01
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Originally Posted by Northernstar
So how often have the IAC been requested for SAR top cover and how often have then been able to respond? When they did not what were the given reasons?.

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Old 1st May 2021, 08:10
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What overseas deployments do the IAC have?
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Old 1st May 2021, 08:17
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
What overseas deployments do the IAC have?
At the moment, none with the exception of personnel serving in DF overseas operations generally. There’s a commission on defence due to report at the end of the year and all eyes are on that. Up until relatively recently, the stated govt policy was to not send aircraft o/seas but that has now been changed, or rather, the prohibition is removed.

To answer the obvious question about staffing any potential detachment, I think the game changer that has yet to make its results apparent is the use of foreign military ab initio training. Turn the taps on with that and you can provide the service with junior members at a much increased rate.
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Old 1st May 2021, 12:17
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Where is that ab initio training going to take place and what will be the quality of it?
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Old 1st May 2021, 12:43
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Where is that ab initio training going to take place and what will be the quality of it?
Ongoing in the US at the moment, at a guess it will have been quality assured before the first students went. At very least any gaps between the syllabi will have been identified to be filled on return to Bal.

That’s in Rucker, as far as I know, for the RW guys. There’s a few on exchange with the RAAF for FW multi engine instructor courses and the first batch of FW an initio students either are or soon will be going to the USAF for the Texan course.
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Old 1st May 2021, 14:10
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I'm not sure that the vast, highly structured sausage machine that is Rucker will produce what you want or need in the IAC, especially when it comes to SAR potential.

You want pilots who think for themselves and can manage weather, not automatons who can talk a good flight.
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Old 1st May 2021, 14:14
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
I'm not sure that the vast, highly structured sausage machine that is Rucker will produce what you want or need in the IAC, especially when it comes to SAR potential.

You want pilots who think for themselves and can manage weather, not automatons who can talk a good flight.
Hence the operational phase being done in Bal I suppose! Being familiar with our lovely weather is definitely a requirement for SAR or any of the other roles, all my more interesting moments were wx related, and always unforecast.
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Old 4th May 2021, 08:17
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External influence.

A certain UK based training provider, a company set up by ex CHC employees and a Canadian based training provider currently supplying services to the Air Corps may possibly have something to do with the drive for the Air Corps to take over Irish SAR.

These three companies have a vested interest €€€.

A number of people on various different social media platforms have stated that CHCI are a Canadian based company and that large quantities of money are leaving the state under the current contract.
CHCI are an Irish based company paying tax in Ireland, with Employees working and residing in Ireland paying tax.

The UK based training provider (ex British armed forces - yet Air Corp personnel talk about sovereignty) will pay no tax in Ireland.

The Canadian based company currently providing training services to the Air Corps pay no tax in Ireland on a contract they received with no tender (Oversight of government money?).

Instead of the Public Accounts Committee investigating the current contract, should they not turn their attention to the lack of services provided by the Air Corps for the money that they receive.

Top Cover - rarely available.
PC9’s purchased for basic training - IAC do not have jets (PC9 lead in trainer for jets).
Cadets sent to CAE US, Fort Rucker US and Australia to receive flight training.
Not able to provide 24hr coverage for fixed wing air ambulance.
Wildfires routinely covered by PDG and Executive Helicopters despite 6 x AW139’s in Balldonnell.
Not able to provide AW139’s to Army (reason they were purchased)
The list goes on!
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Old 4th May 2021, 19:32
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Is this the same canadian company employing ex IAC tech crew who claim SAR experience despite their entire service being post 2003 when the IAC stopped doing SAR? Also the company operating S61’s on NVIS in Yemen where ex IAC crew are contracted?

Slight thread drift but did CHCI not hand out an NVIS training programme to a non Irish company without a tender using public contract money?

And would the company set up by ex CHC employees be a consultancy claiming to provide expertise in AWSAR which requires knowledge and flight experience of modern 4 axis glass cockpit all weather types such as those in use yet those ex chc employees don’t have such experience? Tantamount to fraud.
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Old 11th May 2021, 08:10
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By 2022 Ireland will have paid €630million to foreign helicopter firm CHC to operate

Excluding Air Corps from €1billion search and rescue contract is 'outsourcing of risk' in event of tragedy, TD claims (thesun.ie)
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Old 11th May 2021, 15:14
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Rather making a sensible decision to mitigate risk I would have thought.
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Old 11th May 2021, 18:11
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Agreed, that extra 140 million would quickly be used up in training the inexperienced IAC crews up to a safe level in all weather SAR.
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Old 12th May 2021, 18:46
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Why dont the gov buy the choppers and then outsource the operation and crew it with a mix of experienced civil crews and IAC :-)
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Old 13th May 2021, 02:07
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Originally Posted by Koalatiger
Why dont the gov buy the choppers and then outsource the operation and crew it with a mix of experienced civil crews and IAC :-)
A CRM and SMS nightmare in the offing.....

This is a ludicrous proposal any way you look at it and I suspect it is being pushed by a cadre of officers trying to justify their existence, and maybe jack up the ‘retention bonuses’ they will surely seek to keep them in the service. All the maritime SAR experienced pilots the Air Corps had in the past are either employed with the current service provider or occupying crew seats with Ryanair.
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Old 13th May 2021, 06:06
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Originally Posted by donner89
A CRM and SMS nightmare in the offing.....

This is a ludicrous proposal any way you look at it and I suspect it is being pushed by a cadre of officers trying to justify their existence, and maybe jack up the ‘retention bonuses’ they will surely seek to keep them in the service. All the maritime SAR experienced pilots the Air Corps had in the past are either employed with the current service provider or occupying crew seats with Ryanair.
For sure, If you throw away all CRM you learned since you started flying and bring politics and whining on the aircraft...but I am sure they are all professionals and this will not happen ;-)
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Old 13th May 2021, 10:16
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Originally Posted by Koalatiger
Why dont the gov buy the choppers and then outsource the operation and crew it with a mix of experienced civil crews and IAC :-)
Do the IAC pilots operate on EASA licences?
Do the IAC have an AOC?
Do the IAC have a EASA Part 145?
Do the IAC have a EASA Part CAMO?

Your suggestion is to outsource it, is it to outsource it to a IAA EASA AOC holder, if so then how do you suggest IAC pilots operate civilian registered aircraft.

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