R44 200ftAGL engine out Autorotation video
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The procedure is to set 75% engine RPM, then from the BOTH position, select L, then BOTH, then R, then BOTH (or you can do R first, etc.). The checklist says "Mag Drop at 75% RPM...7% max. in 2 seconds", meaning no more than a 7% loss of RPM from 75%.
Interestingly, there is no minimum mag drop specified. However, it is important to allow more than just two seconds to elapse when performing these checks so that a definite mag drop can be seen, and the integrity of the magneto switching system verified.
Screen grab of the OP video showing the key in the off position.
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I do not know anything about Robbies but...….if that poxy 50p key in the wrong position can result in such a cluster why is there not a dirty big red light or even a beepy noise telling you that the MAGS are not properly switched ON before you slip the surly bonds of earth?
To err is human. To design something that f***ks you up when you err without telling you beforehand is criminal! Does a 44 have a caution/warning panel OR is that the thing I cannot see hiding under the IPAD?
However, the little wild piggy's got to live another day so there was a positive!
To err is human. To design something that f***ks you up when you err without telling you beforehand is criminal! Does a 44 have a caution/warning panel OR is that the thing I cannot see hiding under the IPAD?
However, the little wild piggy's got to live another day so there was a positive!
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There are two P leads, but I believe only one leg on the switch where those leads connect. If that connection was intermittent, and not intact during takeoff, both mags would work with key in "off". Then, if that single connection became intact during flight, both mags would connect to P, and no sparky. Can anybody confirm the switch configuration is one leg ground?
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My GUESS is that gator2 has it.
I learned on R44 and flew then for years. My daughter also. We were both taught that in the mag test, if there was no "lumpiness" and RPM drop when you swapped from BOTH to L or R then there is an electrical problem, and the aircraft is unserviceable. The thing is, with no drop from BOTH to ONE it suggests that when in BOTH you really only have one mag (if the switch is working). As here, it could also show an intermittent fault in the earthing circuit.
A drop of more than 7% indicates that in BOTH you had 2 mags but the mag you are now testing is not serviceable.
I should also add, we were taught to test R first, as it is 2 clicks back to BOTH, then L (one click back to both). That way you reduce the risk of testing R second and only going back 1 click, so departing on the L mag only.
Anyway, if the test does not go as you expect then - whatever the difference - off to maintenance and no flying with me in it until sorted. .
I learned on R44 and flew then for years. My daughter also. We were both taught that in the mag test, if there was no "lumpiness" and RPM drop when you swapped from BOTH to L or R then there is an electrical problem, and the aircraft is unserviceable. The thing is, with no drop from BOTH to ONE it suggests that when in BOTH you really only have one mag (if the switch is working). As here, it could also show an intermittent fault in the earthing circuit.
A drop of more than 7% indicates that in BOTH you had 2 mags but the mag you are now testing is not serviceable.
I should also add, we were taught to test R first, as it is 2 clicks back to BOTH, then L (one click back to both). That way you reduce the risk of testing R second and only going back 1 click, so departing on the L mag only.
Anyway, if the test does not go as you expect then - whatever the difference - off to maintenance and no flying with me in it until sorted. .
Last line of the video: "You're one hell of a f***in' pilot."
I guess we don't get to hear, "Yeah, I managed to take off with the mag switch off! Like to see Chuck Aaron do THAT!"
Oh, and he had plenty of airspeed when it quit - don't they teach R-44 pilots how to do autorotations anymore?
I guess we don't get to hear, "Yeah, I managed to take off with the mag switch off! Like to see Chuck Aaron do THAT!"
Oh, and he had plenty of airspeed when it quit - don't they teach R-44 pilots how to do autorotations anymore?
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The instructor I use for recurrent training has thrown some stuff at me that's close to that level of difficulty, but not quite. Last minute turns, but easy, "safe", terrain. A couple of times it resulted in an unplanned full down (mostly we do power recoveries in 44's) because there was no other way. Which I suppose is fine with the right instructor on board (mine sure is, 10K+ hours) but perhaps not with the average 200 hour CFI-H in a low inertial machine like the 44.
Honestly I hope I can do as well if ever faced with a low level auto in an R44 that needed a last minute turn into scrub lands like that.
aaa777888: "...low inertia machine like the 44."
Uhhh, what? Low-inertia? I've always heard that the R-44 has inertia like a 206B! What gives?
100 feet agl., 72 knots...engine quits, horn sounds. He does the cyclic-back thing alright to get his rpm back but apparently bled off most or all of his airspeed in the process. The horn sounds intermittently, indicating that the collective may not have been on the bottom. He gets a little rpm back in his premature flare and then again in the turn, but it evidently doesn't stay up.
We cannot see the tacho or any of the caution lights. R-44 kids these days sure do love their devices in the cockpit. I ask: How many devices do you need on a hog hunt flight! This kid has one device blocking his view of the mag switch (obviously), and *another* device mounted in such a way that it may have blocked the PIC's view of the caution panel. I am reminded of that chick out on the U.S. west coast who took off to go do some frost control one *dark* morning. She got fiddling with her iPad right after takeoff and ran her little R-44 smack dab into a grove of trees! Wrecked that ship pretty good - lucky she wasn't killed! (She may have damaged one of the trees in that grove, too.)
Finally, aa777888, you and I will just have to disagree on how "difficult" that EOL was. In my limited experience (11,000 hours) most helicopters come down pretty steeply in autorotation. Like, between-the-pedals steep, especially if you start close to your best-auto speed to begin with. Maybe yours doesn't. The powerline along the road was visible from a long way off. The kid should have realized immediately that he'd never glide past it - not from 100'. But there seemed to be plenty of open areas between the sagebrush to set the thing down. I know it's harsh to judge a guy's autorotation after the fact, but the video evidence of this one is pretty damning.
Yeah, yeah, everybody lived and the machine can be replaced...a new job can be found...new devices can be ordered from Apple, and we're thankful for all of that...I guess... But yet another "helicopters are dangerous!" video will go viral on YouTube and Instagram and wherever else "INSANE!!" aircraft crash videos are sold. And anytime a non-aviator asks us what happens when the engine quits, and we give them that standard old explanation of "air rushing up through the rotor keeps it spinning and we have complete control," the non-aviator will say, "Yeah, but I saw this YouTube video of a helicopter that crashed on a hog hunt, and..." And we'll sigh and silently think to ourself, "At least he didn't ask me about the Kobe Bryant crash!"
Uhhh, what? Low-inertia? I've always heard that the R-44 has inertia like a 206B! What gives?
100 feet agl., 72 knots...engine quits, horn sounds. He does the cyclic-back thing alright to get his rpm back but apparently bled off most or all of his airspeed in the process. The horn sounds intermittently, indicating that the collective may not have been on the bottom. He gets a little rpm back in his premature flare and then again in the turn, but it evidently doesn't stay up.
We cannot see the tacho or any of the caution lights. R-44 kids these days sure do love their devices in the cockpit. I ask: How many devices do you need on a hog hunt flight! This kid has one device blocking his view of the mag switch (obviously), and *another* device mounted in such a way that it may have blocked the PIC's view of the caution panel. I am reminded of that chick out on the U.S. west coast who took off to go do some frost control one *dark* morning. She got fiddling with her iPad right after takeoff and ran her little R-44 smack dab into a grove of trees! Wrecked that ship pretty good - lucky she wasn't killed! (She may have damaged one of the trees in that grove, too.)
Finally, aa777888, you and I will just have to disagree on how "difficult" that EOL was. In my limited experience (11,000 hours) most helicopters come down pretty steeply in autorotation. Like, between-the-pedals steep, especially if you start close to your best-auto speed to begin with. Maybe yours doesn't. The powerline along the road was visible from a long way off. The kid should have realized immediately that he'd never glide past it - not from 100'. But there seemed to be plenty of open areas between the sagebrush to set the thing down. I know it's harsh to judge a guy's autorotation after the fact, but the video evidence of this one is pretty damning.
Yeah, yeah, everybody lived and the machine can be replaced...a new job can be found...new devices can be ordered from Apple, and we're thankful for all of that...I guess... But yet another "helicopters are dangerous!" video will go viral on YouTube and Instagram and wherever else "INSANE!!" aircraft crash videos are sold. And anytime a non-aviator asks us what happens when the engine quits, and we give them that standard old explanation of "air rushing up through the rotor keeps it spinning and we have complete control," the non-aviator will say, "Yeah, but I saw this YouTube video of a helicopter that crashed on a hog hunt, and..." And we'll sigh and silently think to ourself, "At least he didn't ask me about the Kobe Bryant crash!"
Apparently the accident was investigated and it turns out the gun of the front seat passenger knocked the magneto switch from the BOTH position to the OFF position and there was a fault in the L magneto that kept the motor running until it suddenly stopped running.
Its a long time since I flew one of "Franks finest" but operationally or even maintenance-wise I don't remember there being any cause to check whether the mags were actually grounded by selecting OFF as I would guess the engine would stop dead as there is no flywheel effect like a prop.
I can understand the requirement with a prop when you see the number of people leaning or standing there with their hand on the prop in so much media. As a maintenance tech it gives me the
shivers - if they only knew. Appears in a lot of so-called "safety" magazines as well.
Mag checks are pretty important in the Robbo and policy was mag check "every" takeoff - no if's or buts. Even if you were on the ground for 30 seconds on all piston types that were operated.
We used to have a policy of cranking to check for a flat cylinder with mags OFF on the first flight of the day which would show up a dud P-Lead. The practice was revised due to subsequent inability to start with crappy little battery and starting issues in the middle of nowhere. It was more important to get a start first time.
No mag drop is the giveaway and yes it is too good to be true - it will always drop.
You gained a "feel" for how good or bad your mags and also plugs were. In the climate we were in mags on R22's might last 300 hours on average before needing some sort of attention. Poor cooling.
I guess as alluded to if one had a dud P-Lead you could start the machine and fly with the mags OFF and in-flight it resurrects itself OOPS! It would need to be the Left one too (I think) as otherwise, I don't think you could start it without
"shower of sparks" and using the retarded mag. The start vibrator grounds the main advanced points (hence P-Lead) and runs the retarded points when the starter is engaged.
As mentioned it is a long time since I flew one of these things but looking at the performance being achieved the aircraft is seriously heavy or the engine isn't producing much power.
I would have thought at 22"-23" and not climbing it doesnt seem to be getting much more than 65-70 knots or is not accelerating ar least. Maybe its me and cant remember just how limited they were!!
I can understand the requirement with a prop when you see the number of people leaning or standing there with their hand on the prop in so much media. As a maintenance tech it gives me the
shivers - if they only knew. Appears in a lot of so-called "safety" magazines as well.
Mag checks are pretty important in the Robbo and policy was mag check "every" takeoff - no if's or buts. Even if you were on the ground for 30 seconds on all piston types that were operated.
We used to have a policy of cranking to check for a flat cylinder with mags OFF on the first flight of the day which would show up a dud P-Lead. The practice was revised due to subsequent inability to start with crappy little battery and starting issues in the middle of nowhere. It was more important to get a start first time.
No mag drop is the giveaway and yes it is too good to be true - it will always drop.
You gained a "feel" for how good or bad your mags and also plugs were. In the climate we were in mags on R22's might last 300 hours on average before needing some sort of attention. Poor cooling.
I guess as alluded to if one had a dud P-Lead you could start the machine and fly with the mags OFF and in-flight it resurrects itself OOPS! It would need to be the Left one too (I think) as otherwise, I don't think you could start it without
"shower of sparks" and using the retarded mag. The start vibrator grounds the main advanced points (hence P-Lead) and runs the retarded points when the starter is engaged.
As mentioned it is a long time since I flew one of these things but looking at the performance being achieved the aircraft is seriously heavy or the engine isn't producing much power.
I would have thought at 22"-23" and not climbing it doesnt seem to be getting much more than 65-70 knots or is not accelerating ar least. Maybe its me and cant remember just how limited they were!!
Apparently the accident was investigated and it turns out the gun of the front seat passenger knocked the magneto switch from the BOTH position to the OFF position and there was a fault in the L magneto that kept the motor running until it suddenly stopped running.
Probably pretty easy to replicate to prove a point.
Cant see the pedals but are rubber boots over them where they go through the floor standard now?
An empty shell case down there has hurt a few people over the years.
Cant see the pedals but are rubber boots over them where they go through the floor standard now?
An empty shell case down there has hurt a few people over the years.
So the implication is that he didn't do any pre-take off checks (or certainly not properly after loading the pax) and he certainly didn't stop in the hover long enough to confirm all was well before transitioning - cowboy is as cowboy does.
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Still the little wild piggy’s got to live another day. Result I think. If your Willy is so small that obliterating a little piggy’s head with a high powered rifle makes it seem better.........then sweet justice really.
Must have been before takeoff?
If you watch the second video from the back seat passenger, you can see they lifted from the front of the hangar and repositioned onto the taxiway before commencing with the final takeoff. The front video doesn't show them lifting from the hangar first. So If the front passenger knocked the mag switch to off with his rifle, then it was likely before the rear passenger started the recording. Though saying that you can't see the front passengers rifle in the second video.
Aside from the video this has been an interesting thread discussion on the magnetos. I'm getting back in the R44 next week so I'll be having a chat with the instructor to have a more in depth discussion on the mags.
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The mag check should have proved mags were functioning correctly, including the RPM recovery on reselecting both. Therefore if MAP is at 20" when rotors are running on the ground, prior to applying pitch, something is wrong, MAP should be around 13" -15" and I have taught this as part of pre takeoff checks, since that tragic accident at Sandtoft when a solo student had only one mag selected. This check is the best way to spot a dodgy/unselected mag. The shimmy from flying on one mag is not that easy to feel in the Raven II. In flight its not always possible to know what MAP should be on a given day, in those specific conditions, so doing the check on the ground is highly recommended.
Mention of low inertia is an interesting one. This comment gets rolled out regularly as a criticism of Robinsons but in this case, its the high inertia of the R44 blades that meant the RRPM didn't come back quickly enough once he'd over pitched. Flying too low to provide sufficient time to recover RRPM is unwise, Get away from the ground asap.
Mention of low inertia is an interesting one. This comment gets rolled out regularly as a criticism of Robinsons but in this case, its the high inertia of the R44 blades that meant the RRPM didn't come back quickly enough once he'd over pitched. Flying too low to provide sufficient time to recover RRPM is unwise, Get away from the ground asap.
