R44 200ftAGL engine out Autorotation video
Just as well there is clear guidance in the R44 POH about how to conduct the mag check - oh no....hang on.............
Nothing in the check list for selecting the switch to BOTH after the check and no pre-take-off checks either.
Nothing in the check list for selecting the switch to BOTH after the check and no pre-take-off checks either.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Nothing in the check list for selecting the switch to BOTH after the check and no pre-take-off checks either.
Now I live in a country where it's all but impossible to own a firearm these days but as a young man I used to use shotguns a lot and when I lived in Australia (before Port Arthur massacre) I had a couple of rifles. So I'm not a complete know-nothing where safety's concerned. I was originally taught to completely unload - removing cartridges - before, for example, climbing over a fence or stile - irrespective of whether safety was on. So throwing a semi-automatic (I've owned one, albeit a 22) out of a helicopter with a magazine in place, irrespective of whether the user thinks there's a chambered round or not - and it seems highly probable in this case that there was - looks plain idiotic to me.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Just as well there is clear guidance in the R44 POH about how to conduct the mag check - oh no....hang on.............
Nothing in the check list for selecting the switch to BOTH after the check and no pre-take-off checks either.
Nothing in the check list for selecting the switch to BOTH after the check and no pre-take-off checks either.
Ah, basic airmanship in regards to running the engine should dictate mags to both! Similar to... the engine should be running for take-off. Shouldn’t need a checklist for that!
You can't assume basic airmanship with some of these people.
There used to be a check in there that the MAP was between 13-14" with the collective fully down. That was a good one for picking up this sort of problem. I don't know why they took that out.
Indeed. There also used to be a check item demanding passengers were actually wearing their seatbelts. it appears, from the rear passenger footage, that the front seat passenger couldn't be arsed and the so-called commander couldn't, er!, command so much as a reminder, either. Do the laws of common-sense or physics not apply in Texas?
Meanwhile...no checklist, no mag test, no after take-off checks, no 'power available' check in the hover..., no sense, no feeling, they say, Very glad all walked away, but that was sheer luck, not airmanship.
Note also the insufficient lowering of the collective, no reaction to the accompanying low RRPM horn (resulting in the classic 'tail chop), no flare, no levelling immediately prior to touch-down,...only the left turn looks good. Like I say...glad all got to walk home.
Can't help thinking Mr Hog will have the last laugh once the insurance assessor also chooses to walk away. And, guns and helicopters together?...as someone else far more qualified than me already pointed out;... such things are best left to the professionals. Lots of lessons to be learned from this one, methinks
Meanwhile...no checklist, no mag test, no after take-off checks, no 'power available' check in the hover..., no sense, no feeling, they say, Very glad all walked away, but that was sheer luck, not airmanship.
Note also the insufficient lowering of the collective, no reaction to the accompanying low RRPM horn (resulting in the classic 'tail chop), no flare, no levelling immediately prior to touch-down,...only the left turn looks good. Like I say...glad all got to walk home.
Can't help thinking Mr Hog will have the last laugh once the insurance assessor also chooses to walk away. And, guns and helicopters together?...as someone else far more qualified than me already pointed out;... such things are best left to the professionals. Lots of lessons to be learned from this one, methinks
Can you explain a bit more, how that would pick up "this sort of problem"?
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Just as well there is clear guidance in the R44 POH about how to conduct the mag check - oh no....hang on.............
Nothing in the check list for selecting the switch to BOTH after the check and no pre-take-off checks either.
Nothing in the check list for selecting the switch to BOTH after the check and no pre-take-off checks either.
The way things are going, we'll eventually end up with a mile long checklist and a ten minute pre-takeoff recitation to make up for insufficient training and/or inattentive/complacent pilots.
Someone "somehow" popped the clutch circuit breaker once after engine start which lead to an incident. Now there is an additional "circuit breakers in" check after engine start on the checklist. I suppose now we'll see an addional "mags to BOTH" added somewhere to the bottom?
All military helicopters I have flown have extensive checklists that are committed to memory and not one of them has taken as long as 10 mins to start and get airborne including first flight functional checks.
Commercial pilots are usually required to complete challenge and response checks from lists so what is the problem with checklists?
I hadn't realised how much of a rise there is. Just found this video where this whole process - both the initial mag check, and the check of the mag switch position and MAP before lifting - is discussed at length, including a demo of the MAP rise on one versus the expected normal figure. He does say that there is hardly any RPM drop during the mag check, and says that means they are healthy. My recollection from FW training is that you want to see a positive drop to confirm you have actually isolated one - not seeing a drop when selecting either L or R would seem to match the fault in the original accident topic.
Smart avionics fit!
For those that know, and can be bothered to watch, why do the rotors start turning after start, with the clutch switch off - residual tension in the belts?
PS. Not much point fitting a four-point harness if it's not worn correctly.......
For those that know, and can be bothered to watch, why do the rotors start turning after start, with the clutch switch off - residual tension in the belts?
PS. Not much point fitting a four-point harness if it's not worn correctly.......
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FWIW: when I first learned to fly <mumble, mumble> many years ago, I was taught that for single pilot op's it was a CHECK list, not a DO list. In this way one achieved the necessary redundancy in a single pilot environment. The DO was achieved in a series of logical flows or patterns, the CHECK came afterward with the handy printed card in your lap, and it is always humbling when you find that you forgot to DO something.
It is certainly not a foolproof system, but it does seem to help me.
It is certainly not a foolproof system, but it does seem to help me.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
you mean something that should have been there in the first place? If adding it stops another pilot getting airborne with faulty mags he hasn't checked properly, you can't really argue that it is a bad thing.
All military helicopters I have flown have extensive checklists that are committed to memory and not one of them has taken as long as 10 mins to start and get airborne including first flight functional checks.
Commercial pilots are usually required to complete challenge and response checks from lists so what is the problem with checklists?
All military helicopters I have flown have extensive checklists that are committed to memory and not one of them has taken as long as 10 mins to start and get airborne including first flight functional checks.
Commercial pilots are usually required to complete challenge and response checks from lists so what is the problem with checklists?
Some things just don't need to be on a checklist.
Edit.
OK. I have read it https://robinsonheli.com/wp-content/...2/rhc_sn33.pdf
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I hadn't realised how much of a rise there is. Just found this video where this whole process - both the initial mag check, and the check of the mag switch position and MAP before lifting - is discussed at length, including a demo of the MAP rise on one versus the expected normal figure. He does say that there is hardly any RPM drop during the mag check, and says that means they are healthy. My recollection from FW training is that you want to see a positive drop to confirm you have actually isolated one - not seeing a drop when selecting either L or R would seem to match the fault in the original accident topic.
You may have missed it, but way back in post 131 I did observe that the MP was way up at 20" when they were on the skids and read to pick up. I also previously addressed the issue that one may need to wait several seconds (more than 2) to detect an RPM drop to confirm a good P lead.
For those that know, and can be bothered to watch, why do the rotors start turning after start, with the clutch switch off - residual tension in the belts?
Last edited by aa777888; 10th Mar 2021 at 16:23. Reason: clarification.
My recollection from FW training is that you want to see a positive drop to confirm you have actually isolated one - not seeing a drop when selecting either L or R would seem to match the fault in the original accident topic.
Not much point fitting a four-point harness if it's not worn correctly
Posted to clear up discussion on mag switch positions. Cockpit switch confusion by the pilot flying a mixed fleet? Cause of crashes and deaths in the airline industry..
A tired mag will approach the 7% in 2 second limit, so not long in that case. I brand new mag can take 5 or even 10 seconds to show even a small drop, say 2%. One must be careful and patient to detect a bad P lead. I suspect most do it by ear, but I like to visualize a discrete drop in RPM. In any case the check is eminently practical.
Last edited by megan; 15th Mar 2021 at 06:27.
Surely for a serviceable mag and P lead, the rpm drop should be instantaneous - the guy in the video certainly seems to think it should by the speed he goes through the switch positions.
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I can't. That's just been my experience. I don't know the "why".
And yet it can be barely detectable initially on a really good mag. We've been discussing above whether this is a peculiarity of the R44 or not.
By way of example, on my R44 the right mag has got 100's of hours on it total and about 70 hours since the last 500 hour mag inspection (approx., I don't have the logs in front of me) and the left mag is brand new, less than 10 hours on it. When I do a mag check right now, in the prescribed "2 seconds", I get a quick and obvious drop on the right mag, albeit nowhere near 7%, and almost no detectable drop on the left mag.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Surely for a serviceable mag and P lead, the rpm drop should be instantaneous - the guy in the video certainly seems to think it should by the speed he goes through the switch positions.
By way of example, on my R44 the right mag has got 100's of hours on it total and about 70 hours since the last 500 hour mag inspection (approx., I don't have the logs in front of me) and the left mag is brand new, less than 10 hours on it. When I do a mag check right now, in the prescribed "2 seconds", I get a quick and obvious drop on the right mag, albeit nowhere near 7%, and almost no detectable drop on the left mag.
