NPAS News 2021
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
Age: 74
Posts: 1,105
I heard the Carr Gate thing slightly differently in that they were planned for downsizing a while back. Someone found an 'old' report on line [on the internal system] that mentioned a Carr Gate downsize. There was also mention of the helicopter going to Doncaster. As a result staff that could not get to Doncaster from their homes bailed out of air support [or moved bases]. So that when the plan was was eventually queried and discounted by management officers had already gone and a new tranche of officers needed to be recruited to fill the resultant gaps to take the base up to 24/7 capable.
A new plan [the most recent] emerged that sought cut the hours of Carr Gate and other places which means that Carr Gate now has too many TFOs for it needs.
Just ongoing confusion of plans that appears to be wasting money in training up new people unnecessarily.
If Carr Gate were to move to Doncaster to fill the yawning space there it would compound the cost issues.
Why would you give up an existing, bought and paid for, base on your own land at Carr Gate [the site houses many other police departments] to simply fill space within a hangar at Doncaster airport where you have to pay ongoing rent and rates etc at International Airport numbers? Moving the remains of fixed wing [whatever that is] elsewhere makes more sense. As I said confusion.
There is nothing wrong with fixed wing but it is a different mission profile to helicopters [and drones].
A new plan [the most recent] emerged that sought cut the hours of Carr Gate and other places which means that Carr Gate now has too many TFOs for it needs.
Just ongoing confusion of plans that appears to be wasting money in training up new people unnecessarily.
If Carr Gate were to move to Doncaster to fill the yawning space there it would compound the cost issues.
Why would you give up an existing, bought and paid for, base on your own land at Carr Gate [the site houses many other police departments] to simply fill space within a hangar at Doncaster airport where you have to pay ongoing rent and rates etc at International Airport numbers? Moving the remains of fixed wing [whatever that is] elsewhere makes more sense. As I said confusion.
There is nothing wrong with fixed wing but it is a different mission profile to helicopters [and drones].
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: I have no idea but the view's great.
Posts: 1,235
They say that if you could give an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters then, eventually, they would produce the complete works of Shakespeare.
Give one monkey a typewriter for half an hour and he'd come up with a better plan for NPAS than they've managed in the last 9 years.
Give one monkey a typewriter for half an hour and he'd come up with a better plan for NPAS than they've managed in the last 9 years.
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Warrington, UK
Posts: 3,568
I don't know if any of you ventured beyond Bryn's comments in January's PAN. I didn't initially until my attention was drawn to an article by David Howell who served as(I think) the UEO of Central Counties ASU and Base Manager for the Met. I think he may be here on PPRuNe as well. Here are a few quotes to whet your appetite.
http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Ac...anuary2021.pdf
http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Ac...anuary2021.pdf
The decision to move the Lippitts Hill base was made several years ago, but why was it made? It was made by a Chief Operating Officer who was intent solely on removing any organisational influence from The Met and was based on personal biases created over many years, some of which were actually spent working within the Met itself.
There was also an unhealthy desire for the then Chief Operating Of- ficer of NPAS to succeed, having failed the Senior Police National Assessment Centre (PNAC).
I for one went through several sessions of counselling to get over a 2 hour ‘non-disciplinary and welfare’ meeting after I dared to question and suggest an alternative plan to his non-sensical restructuring of base managers’ duties.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Tarn-et-Garonne, France
Posts: 10
Picking up on Mighty Gem’s mention of the decision to leave Lippitts Hill. I understood that the departure from Lippitts Hill was because the MPS gave NPAS notice to vacate i.e. it wasn’t NPAS that triggered the move. I would have thought that David Howell was more than aware of this? Or is there another side to the story?
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
Age: 74
Posts: 1,105
Hello Ruffles,
Its a timescale thing. The original move from Lippitts Hill to North Weald was precipitated by NPAS and may arguably be placed at the feet of the COO. That was the several years ago DH mentioned.
The Lippitts Site was relatively expensive [rental/lease] but what is being suggested is that the prime mover was breaking the bond between the Met and the NPAS unit - force jealousy.
Lippitts has been in use as a Met helicopter base full time for over forty years [53 on and off if you include the army trials] and remains firmly Met Territory even though a border move actually placed it in Essex Police area since 2000.
You are correct that the Met have/will/might [it has not happened yet] precipitate the return to Lippitts Hill and the site has been maintained ready to accept them on that basis. Whether the immediate neighbours will scupper that - they have had many noise free months - and whether the recently reported move of the Exeter EC145 to North Weald is a bargaining chip only time will tell.
The only problem with being a 'fly on the wall' in this situation is that you probably also need to be on many walls at the same time in this zoom age!
Its a timescale thing. The original move from Lippitts Hill to North Weald was precipitated by NPAS and may arguably be placed at the feet of the COO. That was the several years ago DH mentioned.
The Lippitts Site was relatively expensive [rental/lease] but what is being suggested is that the prime mover was breaking the bond between the Met and the NPAS unit - force jealousy.
Lippitts has been in use as a Met helicopter base full time for over forty years [53 on and off if you include the army trials] and remains firmly Met Territory even though a border move actually placed it in Essex Police area since 2000.
You are correct that the Met have/will/might [it has not happened yet] precipitate the return to Lippitts Hill and the site has been maintained ready to accept them on that basis. Whether the immediate neighbours will scupper that - they have had many noise free months - and whether the recently reported move of the Exeter EC145 to North Weald is a bargaining chip only time will tell.
The only problem with being a 'fly on the wall' in this situation is that you probably also need to be on many walls at the same time in this zoom age!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The sky mainly
Posts: 316
the site has been maintained ready to accept them
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Devon
Age: 66
Posts: 94
Helicopters, planes and drones.
The NPAS social media pages mention that their planes have been very busy over the last few months visiting various force areas.
With regards to the earlier drone comments, how many forces have their own drone units?
Do those with drones pay as much for NPAS as other forces who don't use drones?
With regards to the earlier drone comments, how many forces have their own drone units?
Do those with drones pay as much for NPAS as other forces who don't use drones?
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Warrington, UK
Posts: 3,568
Originally Posted by Cabby
Do those with drones pay as much for NPAS as other forces who don't use drones?
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Devon
Age: 66
Posts: 94
Originally Posted by MightyGem
Forces pay NPAS for the time that the helicopter spends on "Actioned Calls": ie overhead a task. Doesn't matter whether they are using a drone for other jobs, their use of drones doesn't affect what they pay NPAS.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
Age: 74
Posts: 1,105
So, it appears that NPAS are moving the single EC145 from Exeter to London permanently leaving the western parts of Cornwall without long range air support [which is why the BK117C1 and then the EC145 were bought in the first place]..
Unfortunately it appears that the timing appears a little disjointed [no surprise there then] as there is a need for at least a couple of EC145s to be in Cornwall in June.
Details of the planning are coming out that there is to be an international G7 meeting in mid-June near St. Ives. That will require NPAS resources to be down at Newquay Airport/RAF St, Mawgan at the same time.
Planning?
Unfortunately it appears that the timing appears a little disjointed [no surprise there then] as there is a need for at least a couple of EC145s to be in Cornwall in June.
Details of the planning are coming out that there is to be an international G7 meeting in mid-June near St. Ives. That will require NPAS resources to be down at Newquay Airport/RAF St, Mawgan at the same time.
Planning?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: SW England
Age: 66
Posts: 1,313
I don't know that the move from Exeter would make much difference to Police air support in Cornwall - historically, police officers there were wont to refer to the "Devon Police Helicopter", while officers in west and south Devon referred to the "Exeter Police Helicopter". Plenty of instances of the aircraft not being available for operational tasks because the crew were needed for a visit - or IR renewals - or whatever. I certainly flew once from Wilts to Okehampton to assist with a murder investigation one night (called off as we got to within 5nm), and also remember being tasked from Brum on another night (stood down before we'd left Brum CTR). Later, when flying air ambulance in the county, a policeman I'd known in a former employ told me that their traffic officers working the motorway had no SOP for using the heli (other forces I'd worked with would only conduct a motorway pursuit or stop under the watch of the aircraft) as they knew it would rarely/never be available - despite Middlemoor's perfect position next to the M5/ANPR locations.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
Age: 74
Posts: 1,105
Originally Posted by Thud_and_Blunder
I don't know that the move from Exeter would make much difference to Police air support in Cornwall - historically, police officers there were wont to refer to the "Devon Police Helicopter", while officers in west and south Devon referred to the "Exeter Police Helicopter". Plenty of instances of the aircraft not being available for operational tasks because the crew were needed for a visit - or IR renewals - or whatever. I certainly flew once from Wilts to Okehampton to assist with a murder investigation one night (called off as we got to within 5nm), and also remember being tasked from Brum on another night (stood down before we'd left Brum CTR). Later, when flying air ambulance in the county, a policeman I'd known in a former employ told me that their traffic officers working the motorway had no SOP for using the heli (other forces I'd worked with would only conduct a motorway pursuit or stop under the watch of the aircraft) as they knew it would rarely/never be available - despite Middlemoor's perfect position next to the M5/ANPR locations.
Taking police air support overall you could easily write it off with such observations.
Policing is a 24/7/365 requirement and, except in some rare circumstances, police air support does not, cannot, meet that exacting requirement. Weather alone stops such aspirations in its tracks, that added to maintenance, pilot and crew availability and a myriad of other difficulties suggests that it is a waste of time.
However, as a past user of police air support, I can counter that with a belief that with all its failings on a clear day/night there is nothing better than the availability of an aircraft in support of humble work on the ground. The peace of mind is worth a million £/$/Yen.... On the no aircraft days you just get on with the job as you might have had to for the last 200 years.
After 9 years of effort it appears clear that the national police aircraft organisation is making all the same mistakes that others thought they had pretty much ironed out, and making them time and time again. The Exeter aircraft is just one symptom of the malaise. There are too many symptoms. Notwithstanding the standard availability drawbacks of air support we might expect for the right type of aircraft to be assigned to a given area. Someone thought about BK117/EC145 for Devon & Cornwall and EC145 for London [even if some think they were wrong].
The organisation has not apparently entered into a new rotary aircraft requirement in nine years. They do though have a fine selection of high quality but largely empty Rubb Hangars and other peripheral equipment that they seemingly now think were a waste of resources.
The one aircraft type they appear to have blundered on with, the fixed wing, now appears to have fallen from their favour despite not being utilised to any great extent. How much they have cost is a closely guarded secret but the estimates I have heard for this fleet of two operational aircraft is about equal to being able to buy 2-3 new helicopters. Undoubtedly a much greater number of used low hour airframes could have been an option along the way.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 4DME
Posts: 2,178
Hope this is the right place to ask. I believe we bought four P68s and based them at Doncaster. These days in the house I have noticed that they rarely fly two at once and POLZ never seems to fly at all. Is there a reason.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: The Alps
Posts: 2,518
Originally Posted by N707ZS
Hope this is the right place to ask. I believe we bought four P68s and based them at Doncaster. These days in the house I have noticed that they rarely fly two at once and POLZ never seems to fly at all. Is there a reason.
cheers
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Warrington, UK
Posts: 3,568
Meanwhile, it's musical helicopters here in the North West. Hawarden's is going to Bournemouth, Bournmouth's to Barton and Barton's to Hawarden. It's enough to make you dizzy. There is some method in it though. It puts the 135Ps and 135Ts in their own areas and Barton's 135 is going to Hawarden as it has less hours on it and Hawarden is going down to a single 12 hour shift in the summer.
Other news. It seem s that West Yorks are losing control of the aviation aspects of NPAS and are just retaining the central tasking.
And there is still no sign of the 2018/19 Annual Report on the NPAS website. It's time for the 2019/20 report as well.
Other news. It seem s that West Yorks are losing control of the aviation aspects of NPAS and are just retaining the central tasking.
And there is still no sign of the 2018/19 Annual Report on the NPAS website. It's time for the 2019/20 report as well.
