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N72EX (Kobe Bryant) Crash Reconstruction with new ATC Audio

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N72EX (Kobe Bryant) Crash Reconstruction with new ATC Audio

Old 10th Jun 2020, 20:19
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
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I've been thinking there should be a rich guy pilot qualification checklist: Is this machine IFR certified? Are you Mr. Pilot IFR rated? How much IFR time have you flown in an actual cloud? When was the last time you flew IFR in a cloud? Show me how you engage the autopilot.

Ok, all answers to that the right ones, I'll fly with you.
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Old 10th Jun 2020, 21:05
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah - and if Mr Rich guy then is not too tight to pay (I doubt) for all the satisfying answers Mr. pilot will be happy to drive him
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Old 10th Jun 2020, 22:18
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Firstly, AIRPLANECRAZY,

I am often an outsider looking in but what you have put together is impressive and am glad to see the real proís have embraced your tread.

As posted by gator2

I've been thinking there should be a rich guy pilot qualification checklist: Is this machine IFR certified? Are you Mr. Pilot IFR rated? How much IFR time have you flown in an actual cloud? When was the last time you flew IFR in a cloud? Show me how you engage the autopilot.
Ok, all answers to that the right ones, I'll fly with you.

The rich guy qualification checklist you suggest has often met the clientís requirements (or more by requesting 2 pilots) From my experience in the UK many VIP pilots are ex mil and have thousands of hours on various types in many different weathers and terrain. But sadly these high profile accidents keep happening and the ugly question keeps arising in VIP flights.... peer pressure and then from a pilots prospective do I or donít I...




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Old 11th Jun 2020, 08:08
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Originally Posted by nomorehelosforme View Post
Firstly, AIRPLANECRAZY,

I am often an outsider looking in but what you have put together is impressive and am glad to see the real proís have embraced your tread.

As posted by gator2

I've been thinking there should be a rich guy pilot qualification checklist: Is this machine IFR certified? Are you Mr. Pilot IFR rated? How much IFR time have you flown in an actual cloud? When was the last time you flew IFR in a cloud? Show me how you engage the autopilot.
Ok, all answers to that the right ones, I'll fly with you.

The rich guy qualification checklist you suggest has often met the clientís requirements (or more by requesting 2 pilots) From my experience in the UK many VIP pilots are ex mil and have thousands of hours on various types in many different weathers and terrain. But sadly these high profile accidents keep happening and the ugly question keeps arising in VIP flights.... peer pressure and then from a pilots prospective do I or donít I...
There should probably be a rich guy checklist going in the opposite direction also...
  • Will you pressure the pilot to fly when weather is below minima
  • Will you arrive with sufficient time for the scheduled departure
  • Will you treat the pilot with respect
  • etc.
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Old 11th Jun 2020, 11:50
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
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You don't need any of these "rich Guy checklist" as you already have adequate training - as a pilot.

You are responsible for the safety of the passengers, the aircraft and people on the ground
You cannot escape that responsibility, or blame someone else

If you don't have the strength of character to stand up to the nasty rich guy "wanting it all" then take off the pilot uniform and go do something else. Wearing fancy dress and failing to take responsibility means people are at risk of dying, and it will be solely your fault.

Be professional!
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Old 11th Jun 2020, 12:53
  #46 (permalink)  
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You are responsible for the safety of the passengers, the aircraft and people on the ground
I always flew on the basis that I was the VIP on the flight.
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Old 11th Jun 2020, 14:34
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 601 View Post
I always flew on the basis that I was the VIP on the flight.
Yes - I worked on the basis that generally speaking the pilots are the first at the scene of the accident!
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Old 11th Jun 2020, 16:35
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Evil twin: Good point. Put those on the rich guy checklist. "if I pressure you to fly when it is not safe in your judgement as my pilot will you tell me no?" "If I show up late will you refuse to compromise your flight planning and prep to make up for my irresponsibility?" "If my kids get drunk and want their stomach pumped will you refuse to take off until it is safe?"
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Old 12th Jun 2020, 00:14
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gator2 View Post
Evil twin: Good point. Put those on the rich guy checklist. "if I pressure you to fly when it is not safe in your judgement as my pilot will you tell me no?" "If I show up late will you refuse to compromise your flight planning and prep to make up for my irresponsibility?" "If my kids get drunk and want their stomach pumped will you refuse to take off until it is safe?"
Yes I would still say no in all of those scenario.
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Old 12th Jun 2020, 01:50
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Originally Posted by gator2 View Post
I've been thinking there should be a rich guy pilot qualification checklist: Is this machine IFR certified? Are you Mr. Pilot IFR rated? How much IFR time have you flown in an actual cloud? When was the last time you flew IFR in a cloud? Show me how you engage the autopilot.

Ok, all answers to that the right ones, I'll fly with you.
There are several compagnies that provide a rating system for charter operators.
ARGUS being one of them.
https://www.sherpareport.com/aircraf...ings-jets.html
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Old 12th Jun 2020, 15:40
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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And so it continues
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Old 12th Jun 2020, 23:11
  #52 (permalink)  
LRP
 
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Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
Exactly. If the FAA had listened to the NTSB we would now have a digital record of the flight controls, engines, and instrument indications along with an audio recording of the aircraft hitting the ground with a voice in the background saying "Terrain, Terrain".
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 10:32
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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All they need is to change the VFR minima upwards so people don't end up trying to scud run in crap weather rather than go IFR.

EGPWS is impractical at low level in a helicopter as the amount of alerts just lead you to disable it.

Definitely need CVFDR and the best additional equipment would be a rad alt with an audio warning - that, however, requires the pilot to set the bug religiously and react to the warning appropriately.

Stop pilots scud running and we will see a reduction in CFIT and IIMC.
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 14:16
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
All they need is to change the VFR minima upwards so people don't end up trying to scud run in crap weather rather than go IFR.
...
Stop pilots scud running and we will see a reduction in CFIT and IIMC.
Do you really think this would make a difference? All indications are he violated the existing VFR minimums. This operator did not have the option of IFR.
Is it the regulations, or the mindset?
And the FAA recently increased the helicopter Class G visibility minimums in 2014.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 03:24
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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All they need is to change the VFR minima upwards so people don't end up trying to scud run in crap weather rather than go IFR
Not all operations are conducive to IMR, they have to be conducted VFR or not at all. Raising the VFR limits is not going to do anything either, the current limits are adequate, the failure is to comply. Be there a pilot out there who has not had issues with weather and had a learning moment, as in, I won't do that again?
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 07:38
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Well that pilot certainly won't be doing it again will he?

My point is that some pilots will push marginal conditions with a set of rose tinted glasses on when the weather is on the limits. Move the limits up so it is a more clear-cut out of limits decision and any pushing of those limits becomes slightly safer.

I know this doesn't account for the ones who will launch in below limits conditions and press on once airborne as it gets worse but it might save a few lives.

Other options include mandatory IFR capability for passenger flights, mandatory real IMC experience and recency, reporting of operators launching in marginal or below limits conditions by ATC - none of which are likely to be acceptable.

Or we can sit and do nothing except whinge about stupid pilots and poor decision making - years of highlighting the problems and trying to educate pilots clearly hasn't worked so what is the solution?

Unless you can find some way of decoupling the commercial pressure from the go/no-go/land decision it's just going to keep on happening.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 16:25
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Years of highlighting the problems and trying to educate pilots clearly hasn't worked so what is the solution?
We do not know that. I suspect that many pilots have declined flights due to weather, and many have changed their attitude over the years, they just never make the news and are therefore not a measurable statistic.

I will continue to attempt to educate and mentor.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 05:44
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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I will continue to attempt to educate and mentor.
As will I. When I was instructing on SAR, one of the most difficult things to teach pilots was when to say no since the pressure of lifesaving (potentially) and the will-do culture was at least as much of a driving force to get airborne and give it a go as any commercial pressure.

But we also don't know how many close calls caused by pilots pushing on there continue to be, no-one is going to report that they screwed up and scared themselves but didn't actually crash or break the aircraft.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 15:13
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
We do not know that. I suspect that many pilots have declined flights due to weather, and many have changed their attitude over the years, they just never make the news and are therefore not a measurable statistic.
...
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
...
But we also don't know how many close calls caused by pilots pushing on there continue to be, no-one is going to report that they screwed up and scared themselves but didn't actually crash or break the aircraft.
But we do know UIMC continues to be in the top 3 causes of helicopter accidents.
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Old 16th Jun 2020, 01:58
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Move the limits up so it is a more clear-cut out of limits decision and any pushing of those limits becomes slightly safer
No matter where you set a limit there will be folk, for whatever reason, who will take it the extra yard. People bust the approach minima in an effort to get in, and they can be just plain caught out in their rolling of the dice. Some operators do raise the legal limits for various reasons, often based on the pilots experience level eg military green/white instrument ratings.

Going IFR is no panacea, local A320 airline crew had been planned to a VMC airport, on arrival it had been hit by unforecast fog, with no fuel to go elsewhere they carried out an autoland, a procedure for which they had no training and the aid didn't have the requisite approval. Back when our country had a government run aviation operational control a Puma crew on a VFR ferry flight were advised their destination airport had been closed due unforecast thunderstorms and were asked to nominate an alternate. No alternate available and the crew insisted they would proceed to planned destination, which upset operational control no end for their order was sacrosanct, you have to proceed to an alternate. The only alternate available would have been to find a clear spot and land in the scrub, they made it to destination without confronting any weather issues. Weather forecast are horoscopes with numbers it is said.
one of the most difficult things to teach pilots was when to say no
Nicely summed up Crab, but as you try to fill that bag of experience when to say no is itself a variable, and you hopefully don't have to dip into the bag of luck in the process.

Our EMS industry has an enviable record, often lay in bed at night and hear the local 412 going over in absolutely foul weather and think better you than me, has to be said the crews were very experience IMC folk. The dreadful US EMS experience is commentary I think on the competitive nature of the industry and the lack of standards, witness the recent report where the crews were subject to disciplinary action for refusing trips.
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