Robinson service and sense of responsibility - or lack of it
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: England & Scotland
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Given the risk to safety - noting the reference to degraded flight performance above - why would the regulator not step in at this point and prohibit the current practice of painting the blades with a substance with an unacceptable risk of separation? Is this not a regulatory failure? If action were to be taken by the regulator then the focus would be on finding a safe solution.
Not to defend Robinson’s customer service (Which no doubt shames Airbus). The paint issues (not only blades) I believe is forced on them by Draconian regulations in California.
All paint used must be not only edible, but healthy and gluten free, or something.
The obvious solution is that they relocate their manufacturing plant to somewhere with more realistic regulations. (If such place still exists)
All paint used must be not only edible, but healthy and gluten free, or something.
The obvious solution is that they relocate their manufacturing plant to somewhere with more realistic regulations. (If such place still exists)
Sounds like an old wives tale.
All paint used must be not only edible, but healthy and gluten free, or something.
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: A cold country
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505 is unfortunately a no go for us with floats on, it can't lift enough - when you include standard equipment like lets say, a rotorbrake ...
I tried it as well when demoed in Denmark last year, nice to fly but the Bell salespeople had to admit after some calculations that I was right, it is quite limited on payload when equipped with floats and a decent amount of fuel onboard. The floats incl. bottle etc. for the 505 weigh roughly twice the amount than the ones on the R66, despite both are certified to SeaState 4.
And noise is a real issue we have to face where we fly in the future, so it really comes down to a used EC120.
I tried it as well when demoed in Denmark last year, nice to fly but the Bell salespeople had to admit after some calculations that I was right, it is quite limited on payload when equipped with floats and a decent amount of fuel onboard. The floats incl. bottle etc. for the 505 weigh roughly twice the amount than the ones on the R66, despite both are certified to SeaState 4.
And noise is a real issue we have to face where we fly in the future, so it really comes down to a used EC120.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
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If a 505 won't carry what you want, not sure an EC120 can, either.
On paper an EC120 without floats carries 876lb in cabin with full fuel and no other options. An R66 Turbine Marine carries 862 with floats. Spec. the Lithium battery on the 66 and you can increase that to 888 lbs.
The 505 really does play it fast and loose compared to the 66 in terms of features, trim and weight. At full fuel, by the time you add all the things that are standard on a 66 (headliner, door openers, rotor brake, etc.) you are below 900 lbs in cabin compared to 927 in the 66 (without floats) and still travelling 50NM less than a 66. With the Lithium battery the 66 bumps up to 953 lbs in cabin.
No question the 505 and 120 are nicer to sit in and easier to load with cargo.
On paper an EC120 without floats carries 876lb in cabin with full fuel and no other options. An R66 Turbine Marine carries 862 with floats. Spec. the Lithium battery on the 66 and you can increase that to 888 lbs.
The 505 really does play it fast and loose compared to the 66 in terms of features, trim and weight. At full fuel, by the time you add all the things that are standard on a 66 (headliner, door openers, rotor brake, etc.) you are below 900 lbs in cabin compared to 927 in the 66 (without floats) and still travelling 50NM less than a 66. With the Lithium battery the 66 bumps up to 953 lbs in cabin.
No question the 505 and 120 are nicer to sit in and easier to load with cargo.
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Join Date: May 2002
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The EC120 with same amount of endurance and floats lifts a bit better than the 505. Not much, but a bit. And since the 66 is no-go and noise over city is a big issue that only increase over time, we have to make due with an EC120.
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Even at 3/4 fuel it substantially lags the 66 for in cabin payload when float equipped, at only around 776lbs allowed. And now you are well under 300nm range as well. Not to mention OGE performance of 7600ft vs. 10000 for the 66.
That seems like a rather draconian trade off. Just out of curiosity, if you don't mind sharing, what are your payload and range requirements?
That seems like a rather draconian trade off. Just out of curiosity, if you don't mind sharing, what are your payload and range requirements?
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R66 has much higher payload, sure. But Robinson is no no, that simple. Will not risk come in the same situation again as we have had with the R44 and lack of proper support from the manufacture.
Denmark is flat as a pancake. Highest natural point is approx. 560', don't need to go to 7.600 or 10.000'. Southern Sweden not much higher neither is northern Germany.
Don't worry, I have done my calculations correct. So good that even the Bell representative had to admit I was right and their representative was wrong and checked their calculations at the presentation.
Denmark is flat as a pancake. Highest natural point is approx. 560', don't need to go to 7.600 or 10.000'. Southern Sweden not much higher neither is northern Germany.
Don't worry, I have done my calculations correct. So good that even the Bell representative had to admit I was right and their representative was wrong and checked their calculations at the presentation.
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I absolutely wasn't questioning your math! And I find it hugely entertaining in regards to the 505, too! I was just curious about your actual load and range requirements. Clearly they must fit within the capabilities of the 120, just wondering what the numbers are, how they trade off for you.
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High spec similarly comparison for all three models (R66, B505 and EC120), meaning Garmin 750 GPS, Garmin G500H for R66 and EC120, A/C, Floats etc. and 2 hours of fuel + 30 min. reserve, an 80kg pilot and usefull load become approx. 320 kg. for R66, 235 kg. for B505 and 270 kg. for EC120.
Join Date: Sep 2020
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Hi HeliMurr;
At the moment our maintenance is regularly painting the leading edges with a wear layer. No trust that Robinson should be able a 2nd time to repaint them properly. This is easier and faster than ship them back to Robinson again from EU.
The reason I initially made this post was a last hope that someone at Robinson management would see what they did was wrong, I/we had nothing to loose anymore than try this last hope going online with it. And nothing, nada, zero response. So, I guess this is Robinson new level of customer satisfaction ...
Robinson only paid for the repaint and I believe the return freight. Which took ages due to priority of COVID19 shipments over regularly shipments. Or maybe they just paid the lowest fee that god bumped back for the same reason.
My faith in Robinson has severely deteriorated. We are again looking at acquiring a new helicopter, and if I have a saying its not going to be a Robinson. Ever again - despite having flown them for 14 years now, but this is BAD !!.
You are welcome to send me your pictures, I can post them if you like.
At the moment our maintenance is regularly painting the leading edges with a wear layer. No trust that Robinson should be able a 2nd time to repaint them properly. This is easier and faster than ship them back to Robinson again from EU.
The reason I initially made this post was a last hope that someone at Robinson management would see what they did was wrong, I/we had nothing to loose anymore than try this last hope going online with it. And nothing, nada, zero response. So, I guess this is Robinson new level of customer satisfaction ...
Robinson only paid for the repaint and I believe the return freight. Which took ages due to priority of COVID19 shipments over regularly shipments. Or maybe they just paid the lowest fee that god bumped back for the same reason.
My faith in Robinson has severely deteriorated. We are again looking at acquiring a new helicopter, and if I have a saying its not going to be a Robinson. Ever again - despite having flown them for 14 years now, but this is BAD !!.
You are welcome to send me your pictures, I can post them if you like.
Hi Madman, I am not too active on this site and just noticed you responded to post about the paint peeling off new Robinson blades. What email can I use to send you pictures that you can post? It would also be good if other owner/operators are having the same problem with limited help from Robinson Helicopter Company (RHC).
Thanks in Advance.
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Join Date: May 2002
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HeliMurr's picture that I have uploaded for him. It looks just like what we have experienced, even after respray it very soon begins to chip off again 
...
Before respray ..
After respray and less than 10 flight hours ..
...Before respray ..
After respray and less than 10 flight hours ..
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