Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Pilot qualification to operate in either pilotís seat (EASA)

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Pilot qualification to operate in either pilotís seat (EASA)

Old 14th May 2020, 12:02
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East of Africa
Age: 44
Posts: 877
Originally Posted by Apate View Post

What a shame some operators like to live in the dark ages

Wow, you really must have missed out on the CRM course where they taught proper communication.....

I see it from a different point of view:

Yes, you cannot have two "Commanders".
I was referring to two "Captainīs" in the cockpit (read this as "Two company approved and qualified Captains"), of which only one can be PIC.

Think about this:
An operation where both crew members just fulfill the requirements.
A young Captain holding an ATPL, and a young Copilot with his CPL/ATPL-Theory.

Why would you put a young copilot into the PIC seat?
The aircraft manual (at least on the types i fly; not sure about other helicopters) specify which seat is the "PIC-seat" (e.g. on Bell 412, the aircraft is designed to be flown by one Pilot in the RHS).

Therefor-from a safety point of view-it makes all sense to put the Copilot into the left hand seat, and let the Captain fly from the right-agreed?

Then, at a later point-when the copilot has gained experience, knows the area and company procedures, and has seen dozens, if not hundreds of proper approaches, he will also have gained enough hours to be ready for his upgrade training.

This is where either an instructor will fly with him in the right seat (no "seat issue" there), or a Captain with approval to conduct Line training (Line Training Captain).

Why should a pilot who is not a training Captain or an instructor fly in a "Copilot seat"?

hueyracer is offline  
Old 14th May 2020, 12:29
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: N of 49th parallel
Posts: 148
Simples - there's no such thing as a "co-pilot seat" or a "PIC seat".

Let's agree to disagree. You've said nothing to make me change my opinions!
Apate is offline  
Old 14th May 2020, 13:22
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sometimes here, sometimes there
Posts: 380
As someone who has held both Ops and Training postholder positions on the N Sea, I totally agree with what Apate has stated so far.

As far as I am aware, there is nothing in the OGP guidelines that restrict which seat the Commander or P2 has to occupy. Whilst auditors may have opinions, unless it is in regulation or published guidelines then they are not enforceable.

The fact that the UK CAA are happy that operators manage who sits in which seat also speaks volumes.

As someone who started their career in the '80s, having gone through a command upgrade and change of seat, I am firmly of the opinion that this is not a sensible process. When swapping seats for the first time it feels like you are flying in a totally new aircraft, as everything is different. It is like some sort of twisted initiation process!

To pick up on Apate's other point in favour of flexible seating, maintaining offshore landing recency can be a major challenge, especially night recency. To be able to choose which pilot will likely have to complete the landing is a major benefit.

Having seen both ways of operating, I know which one I favour - by a country mile.
Variable Load is online now  
Old 14th May 2020, 18:37
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 46
Originally Posted by hueyracer View Post
Think about this:
An operation where both crew members just fulfill the requirements.
A young Captain holding an ATPL, and a young Copilot with his CPL/ATPL-Theory.

Why would you put a young copilot into the PIC seat?
The aircraft manual (at least on the types i fly; not sure about other helicopters) specify which seat is the "PIC-seat" (e.g. on Bell 412, the aircraft is designed to be flown by one Pilot in the RHS).

Therefor-from a safety point of view-it makes all sense to put the Copilot into the left hand seat, and let the Captain fly from the right-agreed?
I have never heard of a PIC seat.I have heard of seats restricted to one side if operated single pilot, but that applies to a R22 as much as it does to eg a S76.

Let's expand on your scenario. A fresh captain with ATPL, and a 250 hour co-pilot. You're landing on an offshore helideck with winds 40G60 across obstructions, and a left seat landing is most favorable and even for a fresh captain more or less a piece of cake. For the 250 hour copilot - not so much. Wouldn't you want to be able to do the landing by yourself from the left, relegating the copilot to PM from the right? Isn't that much safer than eg you either having to deal with a cross-cockpit landing or trusting your copilot doing it from the left seat while you can barely see the deck?

Granted, my last offshore helicopter job was back in 2015, but I was rated on 2 types. I don't recall having above mentioned requirement back then. Every 6 month we did a combined LPC/OPC, alternating on type, and on day 3 ( Day 1 - 4:00h recurrent training, day 2 - 4:00h LPC/OPC - day 3 - 4:00h additional training - all split evenly PF/PM) we did mandatory items (EFATO etc) as PF from the other seat.

Now working for an airline (single type), for which the above doesn't apply, all our TRI/TREs and line trainers that need to operate form the right (eg co-pilot) seat during both OPC and LPC have a couple mandatory items to cover, mainly rejected takeoff, EFATO, and OEI landing/Go-Around. As a co-pilot, I am limited to land at 50% of the maximum crosswind component until I have 1500 hours on type - but a lot of captains feel it would be much easier to carry out a landing with a maximum left crosswind from the right seat.


TorqueStripe is offline  
Old 14th May 2020, 18:47
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East of Africa
Age: 44
Posts: 877
I understand your scenario-but how do you deal with that in real life?

Do a weather briefing, then decide who is taking which seat?
What if the wind changes during the flight?


There was an old document many years ago, stating that take offs and landings should be carried out by the Captains only, who would fly from the RHS (in most helicopter, that is the "PIC" - seat).

Reason behind that was the attention span and reaction time in an incident/accident situation.

The seconds it might take you to look for a switch that is not where you are used to because you are not sitting on your usual seat was sometimes leading to catastrophic scenarios..... Or let's talk about flights in bad weather at night, where some switches have to be moved "blind"...

There are pros and cons-but it helps looking at how the airlines are doing it....

They don't have Copilots fly in the "Captains seat" for a reason... And to me, that makes sense (like I said, with the exemptions I mentioned before..)..
hueyracer is offline  
Old 14th May 2020, 20:19
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 614
Hueyracer, you donít have to wonder how it would all work without the crushing weight of EASA busywork. In Canada and other regulatory jurisdictions there are no separate checks for left or right side, no restriction on what side you sit, no restriction of switching PF-PH on final because it is going to work out better that way, from either seat. Flew EMS & Offshore for 30 years like that, question never came up until we encountered Europeans, which adapted without problems. Dual controls, dual instruments, how hard can it be? Sounds to me like some rigid-minded airline background bureaucrats wrote their antiquated and irrelevant notions into your EASA rules. Thread drift, the OP just wants to know how to comply, but then justifying the regs is a weak case.
malabo is offline  
Old 14th May 2020, 21:39
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sometimes here, sometimes there
Posts: 380
Originally Posted by malabo View Post
Hueyracer, you donít have to wonder how it would all work without the crushing weight of EASA busywork. In Canada and other regulatory jurisdictions there are no separate checks for left or right side, no restriction on what side you sit, no restriction of switching PF-PH on final because it is going to work out better that way, from either seat. Flew EMS & Offshore for 30 years like that, question never came up until we encountered Europeans, which adapted without problems. Dual controls, dual instruments, how hard can it be? Sounds to me like some rigid-minded airline background bureaucrats wrote their antiquated and irrelevant notions into your EASA rules. Thread drift, the OP just wants to know how to comply, but then justifying the regs is a weak case.
Malabo, there's a few small hoops to jump through in EASA-land, but nothing great. Heuyracer seems to be creating a proverbial mountain out of a molehill. I'm really struggling to understand his stance!
Variable Load is online now  
Old 15th May 2020, 15:50
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 870
I agree with Variable load this is making a mountain out of a molehill.

The whole purpose of the OPC - be it JAR-OPS or EASA - is to establish the competence of pilot in role. The testing of handling competence in either seat should be undertaken in the most practical way. Normally (the exception when PICUS is being conducted), only captains are tested in both seats. That way a reasonable ratio of captains to co-pilots can be achieved to allow efficient flight and duty time allocation. The regulations were formulated to make this as easy as possible.

On two-crew helicopters, the roles of pilot flying and pilot monitoring are shared. These roles should be assigned to establish a fair sharing of flying and the safety of the operation. Where this is important - for example to a heliport where the landing surface is approached into wind and from the side with the best-field-of view - the roles might be swapped in flight at an appropriate time to allow a safe transition.

When not in training - be that type training, role training, line training or PICUS - command is allocated in accordance with procedures set out by the operator. In the absence of any specific instructions (for example for monitored approaches), the role of pilot flying or pilot monitoring is normally decided by the crew members on the day.

The days of the commander hogging the flying or making cross cockpit approaches should be well behind us.

Jim
JimL is offline  
Old 15th May 2020, 18:23
  #29 (permalink)  
178
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Europe
Posts: 7
Wow, that elicited quite the discussion. I'm not sure if that is a good or a bad thing!

Thank you very much for the replies everyone. My apologies for rather selfishly swinging it back to my original query:

Is it fair to say that if a pilot, for whatever reason, can expect to be flying as commander from either seat station during the course of their duties, then they must swap seats every other OPC? It isn't sufficient to simply do an element of training from both seats.

And on the occasions that they do their OPC in "the other seat" (normally the left) it cannot be a combined OPC/LPC.

Is that about the measure of it?
178 is offline  
Old 15th May 2020, 19:07
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East of Africa
Age: 44
Posts: 877
Yes, that's the way I understand the rules...and the way I have applied it.throughout the past 20 years..
hueyracer is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.