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Polish HEMS EC135 almost losing it on landing

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Polish HEMS EC135 almost losing it on landing

Old 10th Feb 2020, 18:54
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Polish HEMS EC135 almost losing it on landing

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Old 10th Feb 2020, 19:30
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Originally Posted by Sidestick_n_Rudder View Post

Great pilot job with recovery...but what is wrong with Holly fenestron and Airbus H135?
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 20:03
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Nothing wrong with the helicopter
looks like a downwind approach and turning into wind in the high hover.
Fenestron dont like wind from some angles - lots of pedal movement necessary to do it smoothly.
would better have flown a turn with speed, still, he got away with it and has a story to tell and others can learn
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 21:06
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If that was yesterday or today and the windspeeds in Poland were anywere near what we had in Germany, no wonder he nearly lost it. That fenestron and fin offers a huge surface for crosswinds. If he was even downwind in these winds, he's lucky he didn't crash it.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 21:46
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Originally Posted by muermel View Post
If that was yesterday or today and the windspeeds in Poland were anywere near what we had in Germany, no wonder he nearly lost it. That fenestron and fin offers a huge surface for crosswinds. If he was even downwind in these winds, he's lucky he didn't crash it.
In the beginning somebody taught me to approach into the wind. I suppose that even holds true if the wind is very strong?
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 21:49
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Approach was with 250-260 heading wind from 230 at 15 kt ... The video is from mirror so to make it real You should see it also in mirror...
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 21:58
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Originally Posted by topik22 View Post
Approach was with 250-260 heading wind from 230 at 15 kt ... The video is from mirror so to make it real You should see it also in mirror...
I would consider this straight into the wind. So what is wrong with the anti torque device (did somebody ask this question already?)
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 22:12
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Not sure which way the wind was blowing, but it sure looks like a classic case of http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...ar/ac90-95.pdf, albeit with things spinning in the EU direction instead of the US direction.

Great recovery.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 22:35
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Originally Posted by aa777888 View Post
Not sure which way the wind was blowing, but it sure looks like a classic case of http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...ar/ac90-95.pdf, albeit with things spinning in the EU direction instead of the US direction.

Great recovery.
The 135 rotates in the conventional way as does the 145 i.e. anti-clockwise, NOT the same as other Airbus Helicopter product. I have had to reverse it down taxiways or completely sideways in strong winds.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 23:30
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Someone with a video camera on every flight

Interesting footage and no assumptions made here as I have no idea of the circumstances. An ops director once told me "Assume that the authorities, Chief Pilot, Director of Ops and Safety Director are watching every take off and every landing". With social media it is so very true. Every 'boring' or 'routine' flight, is a good flight.
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 01:55
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Originally Posted by Autonomous Collectiv View Post
The 135 rotates in the conventional way as does the 145 i.e. anti-clockwise, NOT the same as other Airbus Helicopter product. I have had to reverse it down taxiways or completely sideways in strong winds.
Well that's damn interesting. How do we account for the left yaw, then?
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 05:50
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Originally Posted by aa777888 View Post
Well that's damn interesting. How do we account for the left yaw, then?
Mirror image inverts apparent direction of yaw.
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 07:38
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Originally Posted by topik22 View Post
Approach was with 250-260 heading wind from 230 at 15 kt ... The video is from mirror so to make it real You should see it also in mirror...
so approach into wind, passing the vehicles, then turning downwind for the landing?
with 15 knots of wind?
Manageable - but you have to anticipate that wind from about 30-45 degree out of centerline, regardless if it is from the front or back, might give some wobble due to disturbed airflow around the fenestron.
No way to hurry through an outside landing-
Proper assessment of the landing site, how to approach and how to depart later shouldn’t be rushed. As you can see here, instead of landing and helping time will be wasted for paperwork (luckily only)
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 12:39
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Originally Posted by Hot and Hi View Post
Mirror image inverts apparent direction of yaw.
I'm such a dolt! Of course, thank you!
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 14:59
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Big DC windbreak

That mahoosive distribution centre opposite would I suspect create some interesting dynamics and that coupled with little bit of fenestron stall - looks like it induced a little sphincter twitch..... still good recovery and fly away to calm the nerves.... remember this happening in a gazelle in Germany many moons ago - never seen an airtrooper run so fast 🤣🤣
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 15:22
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Fenestron stall doesn't exist.
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 18:20
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Fenestron stall doesn't exist.
Glad that you seem to have better knowledge than the AAIB - they seem to think it existed and so did we 89-95 - BAOR / NI / Op Granby

https://assets.publishing.service.go...TURP_01-92.pdf
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 20:58
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Originally Posted by Jetscream 32 View Post
Glad that you seem to have better knowledge than the AAIB - they seem to think it existed and so did we 89-95 - BAOR / NI / Op Granby

https://assets.publishing.service.go...TURP_01-92.pdf
very old report and still, there is no fenestron stall
just inappropriate Pedal movement
with Fenestron you have - non linear - longer travel
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 21:21
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I've had a couple of vinos, probably missed something, but where are people getting wind speed and direction from that video?
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 21:46
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Glad that you seem to have better knowledge than the AAIB - they seem to think it existed and so did we 89-95 - BAOR / NI / Op Granby
Yes the same information was widespread in the UK Mil and I was flying the Gazelle at Shawbury during that period but was never convinced about the theory.

The whole construct of Fenestron Stall was demolished when Aerospatiale demonstrated recovery from in excess of 120 deg/sec left yaw with full right pedal and it stopped perfectly (albeit with the little red Tq light flashing).

It was later understood that Fenestrons have different handling characteristics to conventional TRs and need prompt and sometimes large pedal movements to control undemanded yaw where the pilot has got behind the curve regarding actual pedal position compared with required pedal position,
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