Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: California
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TWAS helps an IFR flight to stay away from terrain. Here we deal with an VFR flight that went into IMC (“conditions”) but never adopted IFR (“rules”). The pilot was acutely aware of the proximity of terrain (so no further benefit of a TWAS telling him) and used his limited or otherwise abilities to get away from it.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: California
Age: 54
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Honest question: Do you see any indication in this pattern (from level flight to -5000fpm at 150kts+ in 15s) which would indicate anything else other than LOC (in the extended sense that it was not so much a mechanical loss of control but a loss of spatial orientation, aka incipient 'Graveyard Spiral')?
The CFIT case is hard to imagine, choosing a descent into worse fog and mountains being the preferred option over a climb into relative safety and staying ahead of the a/c. In extremis the PF is at one with their equipment, game face is on and social factors are not even on the radar.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 419 Likes
on
221 Posts
The point about having TAWS is that having to deal with constant warnings from it might have persuaded the pilot to turn back somewhat earlier. Obviously, if you have lost control of the aircraft it would be just one extra distraction to deal with.
The aircraft I fly has it but it really is only of use in the cruise, as a cross check of my adequate terrain clearance planning. It sometimes becomes a nuisance when landing at off airport sites. There is no “pull up” audio warning on it, btw.
The aircraft I fly has it but it really is only of use in the cruise, as a cross check of my adequate terrain clearance planning. It sometimes becomes a nuisance when landing at off airport sites. There is no “pull up” audio warning on it, btw.
OMGGGG! And you can do that at 150kts headed straight into a funnel where rising terrain converges up to the cloud bases and you know there's Earth in the cloud ahead that you are about to climb into???? All while unexpectedly having to quickly establish a crosscheck and swap from eyes outside to instruments. SMH
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not fly IFR
Any helo drivers care to advise why it would be- barring major airport airspace complications- not common practice to file an IFR flight plan and cruise at say, 5000’ or so, well clear of terrain? Then cancel the IFR and land visually at the destination? I never understood running scuds if it weren’t entirely, positively necessary.
The point about having TAWS is that having to deal with constant warnings from it might have persuaded the pilot to turn back somewhat earlier. Obviously, if you have lost control of the aircraft it would be just one extra distraction to deal with.
The aircraft I fly has it but it really is only of use in the cruise, as a cross check of my adequate terrain clearance planning. It sometimes becomes a nuisance when landing at off airport sites. There is no “pull up” audio warning on it, btw.
The aircraft I fly has it but it really is only of use in the cruise, as a cross check of my adequate terrain clearance planning. It sometimes becomes a nuisance when landing at off airport sites. There is no “pull up” audio warning on it, btw.
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: US
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Salute!
Two things.....
Murphy made a comment that I cannot find/recall associated with a post I made...... but I can stand to be corrected, and I fully unnerstan some folks with a small bladder and associated biological needs. Maybe someone else mentioned the "bucket" need, but I don't think it was me!
I return to the CFIT and IIMC aspects of this tragedy, and my personal plan B was to fly st ahead and climb unless very familiar with the terrain nearby.
Gums sends...
Two things.....
Murphy made a comment that I cannot find/recall associated with a post I made...... but I can stand to be corrected, and I fully unnerstan some folks with a small bladder and associated biological needs. Maybe someone else mentioned the "bucket" need, but I don't think it was me!
Another thought was triggered by Gums comment about passengers needing a bucket after the circling hold, is it possible that a passenger did something very distracting
Gums sends...
Murphy made a comment that I cannot find/recall associated with a post I made...... but I can stand to be corrected, and I fully unnerstan some folks with a small bladder and associated biological needs. Maybe someone else mentioned the "bucket" need, but I don't think it was me!
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 419 Likes
on
221 Posts
If the aircraft was equipped with a TAWS with a “screaming audio”; as I wrote, not all do so. The system on the type I fly freezes the nav display until cancelled, which is a bit of a hint that it might be time to go to plan B.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: us
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One can assume the pilot checked departure and arrival station wx and forecasts, and possibly KBUR and KVNY. However, in this type of operation, there is no accurate method of checking conditions along your entire route. Unlike IFR operations, enroute wx and hazards don't appear to get much attention. Had he been aware of the enroute wx, should he have even attempted the flight? Or, should he have pressed on as far as he could, which he apparently did, resulting in being forced to make some hasty last minute decisions? I've always felt VFR operations provide the operator with an abundance of ways to get into trouble.
In light of this tragedy, I would hope that clients of this type of operation attempt to educate themselves as to the potential hazards associated with marginal VFR operations.
In light of this tragedy, I would hope that clients of this type of operation attempt to educate themselves as to the potential hazards associated with marginal VFR operations.
Please continue the "healthy" discussion and continue to be respectful, lest we forget, there is a human side to this.
Please don't ask----I cannot comment for obvious reasons. And maybe lighten up a bit on SASless for some of his "moderation" earlier...
RIP Ara, my best friend:
Please don't ask----I cannot comment for obvious reasons. And maybe lighten up a bit on SASless for some of his "moderation" earlier...
RIP Ara, my best friend:
Last edited by Gordy; 1st Feb 2020 at 05:40.
Yeah LOC is most likely IMHO. I am not as convinced as some on the CFIT narrative. Flying instruments is not that tricky given wx was anticipated, entry was at stable cruise and he had a good attentive scan to gain IMC rating. Didn't we all fly IMC in the pea soup as a teenager using steam gauges. Caveat is I am a fixed winger, is it a world of difference in a rotary?.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Estonia
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51332546
I'm not sure I understand what they mean by this. Do commercial operators in the US require a specific license (or training?) for their instrument-rated pilots to fly in IFR conditions?
Island Express Helicopters was restricted to flying under what are known as visual flight rules, meaning pilots must be able to see clearly outside the aircraft in daylight, Keith Holloway, a National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) spokesman, told the Reuters news agency.
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Bremen
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Loss of aircraft control while or deviation from intended flightpath inflight . (LOC-I: Loss of control - inflight)
Loss of control inflight is an extreme manifestation of a deviation from intended flightpath.
Loss of control inflight is an extreme manifestation of a deviation from intended flightpath.
CFIT is more of an "wasn't aware there was terrain in the way" kind of thing.
I found this interesting:
Unintended flight in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) (UIMC: Unintended flight in IMC)
Usage Notes:
• May be used as a precursor to CFIT, LOC-I or LALT.
• Applicable if the pilot was flying according to Visual Flight Rules (VFR), as defined in Annex 2 – Rules of the Air – to the Convention on International Civil Aviation and by any reason found oneself inadvertently in IMC
• Only to be used when loss of visual references is encountered,
• Only to be used if pilot not qualified to fly in IMC and/or aircraft not equipped to fly in IMC
Usage Notes:
• May be used as a precursor to CFIT, LOC-I or LALT.
• Applicable if the pilot was flying according to Visual Flight Rules (VFR), as defined in Annex 2 – Rules of the Air – to the Convention on International Civil Aviation and by any reason found oneself inadvertently in IMC
• Only to be used when loss of visual references is encountered,
• Only to be used if pilot not qualified to fly in IMC and/or aircraft not equipped to fly in IMC
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Somewhere by the Baltic Sea
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Honest question: Do you see any indication in this pattern (from level flight to -5000fpm at 150kts+ in 15s) which would indicate anything else other than LOC (in the extended sense that it was not so much a mechanical loss of control but a loss of spatial orientation, aka incipient 'Graveyard Spiral')?
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 737
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VFR flight entering into IMC when unintended, unexpected and undesired, is one of the most challenging situations any pilot can face. Perhaps particularly in a helicopter? Preceding that with extensive manoeuvring and speed changes means the inner ear will likely give you a very bad case of the leans.
Having at some previous point held a ticket to prepare and then fly on instruments ‘under the hood’ (possibly on a totally different helicopter?) is of limited value I’m afraid.
There is absolutely no substitute for continuous regular IFR training in the actual aircraft. But if the operator thinks flight on instruments is not required for their operation, who will pay for the pilot’s training. Even if the pilot understands the requirement?
IF this proves to be unsuccessful unplanned entry into IMC whilst attempting to maintain visual contact with the ground, it will merely be the most recent in a long, long, long list of similar accidents.
It’s an insidious, and utterly unnecessary chain of events.
How tragically sad for all involved. I am so very sorry.
Having at some previous point held a ticket to prepare and then fly on instruments ‘under the hood’ (possibly on a totally different helicopter?) is of limited value I’m afraid.
There is absolutely no substitute for continuous regular IFR training in the actual aircraft. But if the operator thinks flight on instruments is not required for their operation, who will pay for the pilot’s training. Even if the pilot understands the requirement?
IF this proves to be unsuccessful unplanned entry into IMC whilst attempting to maintain visual contact with the ground, it will merely be the most recent in a long, long, long list of similar accidents.
It’s an insidious, and utterly unnecessary chain of events.
How tragically sad for all involved. I am so very sorry.
Folks.....don't get ahead of the facts in your comments.
Do not take for gospel. what you are reading in the media and for sure not here at Rotor Heads when you address this particular tragedy.
As in everyone of these events....it takes a long time for the actual facts and data to be ascertained and published.
If you are going to pontificate at least take the time to carefully consider separating the wheat from the chaff in that regard.
Until you know without any doubt whatsoever the accuracy of the information you are basing your opinion upon....remember you are just speculating, supposing, surmising, or just plain flat assed guessing as to what happened.
Discussing this is fine but be reasonable in how you go about it....some of you seem to skip off into fantasy land without giving scant consideration to the known "facts" which are pretty thin at this time.
All of the information so far comes from sources outside the cockpit.....think about that for a bit.
No matter how much we learn....it will not be from inside the cockpit....we will never know what the Pilot could see, what he was experiencing, what he was thinking, and probably never know with certainty what he did during the final moments of that flight.
We can combine all of the known data and other evidence to begin to get a good idea but probably we will never really know.
Let's start with the latest road some of you are traveling.
What do you know for a fact about the Pilot's Instrument flying qualifications, training, experience, currency, and proficiency at the time of crash?
Lay it out and quote your source(s) for that information.
If You want to describe him as being incompetent.....PROVE IT!
Back up what you are saying.....do so with proven and ascertainable fact.....or amend your posts to note your opinion is pure speculation.
Do not take for gospel. what you are reading in the media and for sure not here at Rotor Heads when you address this particular tragedy.
As in everyone of these events....it takes a long time for the actual facts and data to be ascertained and published.
If you are going to pontificate at least take the time to carefully consider separating the wheat from the chaff in that regard.
Until you know without any doubt whatsoever the accuracy of the information you are basing your opinion upon....remember you are just speculating, supposing, surmising, or just plain flat assed guessing as to what happened.
Discussing this is fine but be reasonable in how you go about it....some of you seem to skip off into fantasy land without giving scant consideration to the known "facts" which are pretty thin at this time.
All of the information so far comes from sources outside the cockpit.....think about that for a bit.
No matter how much we learn....it will not be from inside the cockpit....we will never know what the Pilot could see, what he was experiencing, what he was thinking, and probably never know with certainty what he did during the final moments of that flight.
We can combine all of the known data and other evidence to begin to get a good idea but probably we will never really know.
Let's start with the latest road some of you are traveling.
What do you know for a fact about the Pilot's Instrument flying qualifications, training, experience, currency, and proficiency at the time of crash?
Lay it out and quote your source(s) for that information.
If You want to describe him as being incompetent.....PROVE IT!
Back up what you are saying.....do so with proven and ascertainable fact.....or amend your posts to note your opinion is pure speculation.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Leeds
Posts: 702
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Witness on Liveleak
https://youtu.be/28QYy8lrww8
As described by Expecting2fly
The description of the micro climate and the wx situation comes at the end of the video.
https://youtu.be/28QYy8lrww8
As described by Expecting2fly
The description of the micro climate and the wx situation comes at the end of the video.
...
Only to be used if pilot not qualified to fly in IMC and/or aircraft not equipped to fly in IMC
Ms Homendy mentioned that the NTSB would be looking into whether the IFR equipment in the helicopter was servicable. If it was, and since the pilot was IFR-rated, this would technically fail to qualify as an UIMC occurence.
Only to be used if pilot not qualified to fly in IMC and/or aircraft not equipped to fly in IMC
Ms Homendy mentioned that the NTSB would be looking into whether the IFR equipment in the helicopter was servicable. If it was, and since the pilot was IFR-rated, this would technically fail to qualify as an UIMC occurence.