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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

Old 30th Jan 2020, 16:59
  #321 (permalink)  
 
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The NTSB clearly stated that the company was 135 VFR only for helicopters. No idea if they had airplanes on their ops specs or not. You'll have to wait to see if the pilot was legally current, which we all know is an absolute minimum for IFR flying. Breaking company rules in the effort to be safe shouldn't even be a thing to worry about. Company rules and the regs. require weather be good at departure. For VFR flight, what happens after departure is the pilots judgement. If you can't stay VFR you may use SVFR if they grant it. It's pretty rare to be unable to stay SVFR but you must report that if it happens. Once back in class G, if you can't stay clear of clouds it is time to land tout suit or declare an emergency after you have secured the flying part. What ever happened to aviate, navigate, communicate in that order. And another thing, if this pilot was a long time LA basin guy, wouldn't or shouldn't he have known where the deck for VFR flight following was on common routes?

Last edited by roscoe1; 30th Jan 2020 at 21:39.
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 17:03
  #322 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mozella
From Forbes:
"The helicopter that crashed Sunday killing basketball star Kobe Bryant and eight others was owned by a charter company that only operated under visual flight rules, and its pilots were not permitted to fly solely based on their cockpit gauges if they encountered weather that limited visibility, a former pilot for the company told Forbes."

My experience is strictly limited to time as a Navy Fighter Pilot and later as a Commercial Airline Pilot but that was "back in the day". I know almost nothing about Part 135.

If the article in Forbes is true, it might explain why the pilot tried so hard to complete his mission using VFR/SVRF in such poor weather. Can someone with experience in Part 135 VFR-only operations comment on what would be the legal and professional ramifications if in this case Bryant's pilot had given up his "scud running', entered IMC, and presented himself as a pop-up IFR aircraft? I imagine plenty of people would be tight-jawed about doing this starting immediately with the controlling agency and no doubt it would not end there.

I don't know if the pilot was current for IFR or not and I suspect that although the helicopter may have been suitably equipped, I'm guessing that the maintenance required for IFR flight was not up to date. So it's certain that more than one person would have to do an unpleasant rug-dance and somebody would be paying fines and/or be forced to deal with licensing problems some place down the line. But almost anything is better than slamming into a hillside.

Comments from those closer to the action than I?
The Forbes article you mention is https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremyb...y-instruments/
I thought it made some interesting points, but I couldn't comment on them.

The NTSB has announced that they have the maintenance records, so I expect the state of the flight instruments is going to be documented in their preliminary report. The information I have seen has the pilot holding a current IFR rating, but all of that will also be in the report.

Last edited by Musician; 30th Jan 2020 at 17:17.
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 17:27
  #323 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50
For Jim Eli: Amen. The transition from VFR scan to IFR scan, if not practiced, can create its own problems.
That's how we taught it ... wait, how many years ago has it been? Yikes, gettin' old!

I am trying to piece together in my head a picture of what was going on during what looks to me like a climbing turn to the left.
If the pilot also slowed down while entering that climbing turn (trading airspeed for altitude, and also creating a tighter turning circle if he knew of rising terrain to his left) he may have -- speculation here -- created for himself an unusual attitude in IMC within a very short time after entering the goo, and, with a three axis change in flying parameters, induced a mild sense of vertigo. (--Guessing here-- and remembering a few of my own cases of The Leans that happened over the years)
Now the pilot is playing catch up. Finally getting instrument scan together, realizing (perhaps) that wings are not level, and begins to recover from unusual attitude/upset, is unable to arrest descent before running out of altitude.
Not sure all if the pieces fit, but that sequence seems to be a way that the end condition that the mountain bikers heard/saw could come about.
I think you've got it about right, Lonewolf. Like many others here, I have also experienced the extreme difficulty of unexpectedly transitioning from visual flying to instrument scan. When you add in rapid attitude changes in multiple axes, it is VERY easy to get the leans and then it is a lot of hard work to overcome that.
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 19:56
  #324 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless
Lots of "what if'ing" there Mozella!

Do your remember your FAR's re Pilot Actions during an Emergency?

You do raise some good questions but some of your statements get ahead of the facts known at this time I suggest.

Yes, of course I know all about declaring emergencies. When I was flying in the Navy I was taught to declare an emergency when necessary and I did so a number of times with great success. Suddenly you stop asking and start telling. However, I personally know a number of civilian trained pilots who think that the last thing in the world they might do is declare an emergency and one or two of them are no longer with us because of it. In at least one instance, I lost a good friend for the very reason that he failed to use his instrument rating and the IFR instruments in his aircraft when push came to shove when he ran out of airspace suitable for his VFR flight plan. The accident being discussed in this thread has a lot of similarities; i.e. deteriorating weather conditions with a sad ending.

You can read about the downside of not declaring an emergency on this very forum in many other threads when things went from bad to worse because the pilot didn't want to be too much of a bother or perhaps because he/she didn't want to cope with all the paper work, rug dances, and so on. It happens and unfortunately it sometimes ends in tears.

There has been plenty of discussion in this thread about being overly focused on completing the mission with an "I can do it" attitude which was just a little too strong for the circumstances. "Get-home-ites is a variation on that theme. It's real and sometimes it's fatal. In hindsight we always say things like "a basketball game isn't all that important" and while that is certainly true, that thought is not always applied ahead of time when it might do the most good.

In my flying career, I flew almost exclusively in aircraft legal for IFR and I maintained my Instrument currency; therefore, I never felt that there was any pressure on me to avoid asking for an IFR clearance. That's why I was asking about those who may have actually been employed by an outfit which was NOT allowed to fly IFR and who operated aircraft which were NOT maintained to comply with FARs regarding IMC flying. Given those circumstances, I wonder if there is strong company pressure to NEVER get caught in a situation requiring IFR operations. Perhaps it's no big deal, but perhaps it is.
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 20:30
  #325 (permalink)  
 
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theres a close to the scene video of the crash site available as first responders arrived on theync.com.
I wont link it because the site has alot of questionable material.
not sure if anyone else has seen it or if its available anywhere else.
shows the weather conditions at the very least, not much else useful to speculate on
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 20:37
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Kenish , thanks for local terrain info .
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 21:09
  #327 (permalink)  
 
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Island Express Helicopters, the company that owns the helicopter that crashed Sunday, killing NBA legend Kobe Bryant and eight others, is "suspending all flight service for operational reasons," two company representatives told CNN on Thursday.

The representatives declined to provide any other details about the suspension.
In addition to charter flights, Island Express provides regular helicopter service to and from Catalina Island.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/30/u...day/index.html
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 22:29
  #328 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aa5bpilot
...I agree with BrogulT that a straight ahead max-performance climb would appear to have been the best option..
And it's easy to do in the S76. Having missed the opportunity to turn around, and now in IIMC, pull up the CDI knob to center the heading bug, push the HDG button on the flight director, haul in the power. It takes about 2 or 3 seconds to do that. Confirm climbing wings level, adjust pitch trim in the direction of 75 kts and make the radio call. You'd be rocketing skywards now doing at least 2000 fpm.
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 22:47
  #329 (permalink)  
 
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CFIT? Posibly not

Originally Posted by Arnie Madsen
.

Interesting to note impact scene from the NTSB video posted by Airbubba ..... the main rotor blades appear to be at the initial impact site and the remainder of the fuselage bounced and landed a bit farther away ...... could that indicate inverted flight at impact ??

.



.
I agree. There is an almost circular pattern evident (to me anyway) at the site of the initial impact point. If looking at the NTSB B-Roll of the site (Post #206), the tail fin is out of the above photo, just below the bottom edge of the photograph. It appears that the bulk of the wreckage (fuselage etc.) traveled (possibly rolling) from right-to-left in the above photo, with the fuselage winding up on its left side. This could indicate that the helicopter was in a side slip as well as being inverted. In my opinion, this was not a CFIT.

While having flown quite a bit in helicopters, I'm not a helicopter pilot - just a relatively low time fixed wing; consequently, this is just a bunch of relatively ignorant speculation on my part. In my defense, I do have more a little experience in aircraft crash investigation.

Cheers,
Grog

Last edited by capngrog; 30th Jan 2020 at 22:52. Reason: correct typo and add information
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 22:58
  #330 (permalink)  
 
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For what it's worth, I'm based at SBA and had a trip into LA, by car, that morning driving through only about 40 minutes before the incident. As such I drove past KCMA, through Camarillo and up the hill to T/O and past Las Virgenes on the way into the Valley on the trip to Glendale.

The weather is being described by the media as "very bad" but it's not necessarily atypical for mornings coming from the Oxnard-Camarillo plain, where marine layer is common in summer but not that unusual year around. Oxnard was still foggy at 0845 that morning... and there'd been a bad crash, in similar conditions, on the Oxnard side of the river on the previous morning.
As is common, the fog cleared on the Camarillo side and KCMA was reporting "1.5 miles, with low ceiling" at that time of day.

What WAS unusual about the trip this time is that generally, when you have foggy conditions along the SBA-Ventura coast and the low-lying river mouth of the Ventura River area was this: USUALLY you drive OUT of the fog going up the hill. Generally it clears by the CHP Weigh Station at the top of Conejo Pass. This Sunday, however, it was different... coming over the top of the pass and down toward Wendy drive into Conejo Valley I got into pea soup fog, off-and-on, which didn't really clear until I was pretty much into the Valley at Topanga.

The net is that I simply don't see how this flight could have completed in VFR or SVFR operating rules, since there WERE MULTIPLE cloud/fog layers under a low overcast. He would have had to do more than Scud-running to get to a safe arrival at KCMA. I understand that he "did this trip all the time", but fog around the pass isn't that unusual-- it was just complicated Sunday by layers that he''d have had to transit for a safe arrival. Conejo pass up to 2500' was fogged in. Those conditions had persisted for hours, so I'm completely unclear as to how he'd have filed a flight plan to do this trip given the poor VFR conditions enroute. I'm mystified by this so perhaps the helicopter pilots here can fill in the details. Because it looks like he either would have had to scrub or transit some ugly IMC to get there. It's baffling.

Curt
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 23:13
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Stupid question probably... but could this flight have been made up the coast instead?
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 23:17
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It's tricky. The Departure corridors for 25 and 24 at LAX go right over that bit of ocean. They probably had an easier time sequencing him to DTLA, Glendale where he held, then across BUR and VNY controlled airspace
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 23:34
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Originally Posted by TachyonID
It's tricky. The Departure corridors for 25 and 24 at LAX go right over that bit of ocean. They probably had an easier time sequencing him to DTLA, Glendale where he held, then across BUR and VNY controlled airspace
Ah. I was thinking you could just fly under them.
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 23:43
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Originally Posted by gulliBell
And it's easy to do in the S76. Having missed the opportunity to turn around, and now in IIMC, pull up the CDI knob to center the heading bug, push the HDG button on the flight director, haul in the power. It takes about 2 or 3 seconds to do that. Confirm climbing wings level, adjust pitch trim in the direction of 75 kts and make the radio call. You'd be rocketing skywards now doing at least 2000 fpm.
OMGGGG! And you can do that at 150kts headed straight into a funnel where rising terrain converges up to the cloud bases and you know there's Earth in the cloud ahead that you are about to climb into???? All while unexpectedly having to quickly establish a crosscheck and swap from eyes outside to instruments. SMH
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Old 31st Jan 2020, 00:28
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Originally Posted by gulliBell
And it's easy to do in the S76. Having missed the opportunity to turn around, and now in IIMC, pull up the CDI knob to center the heading bug, push the HDG button on the flight director, haul in the power. It takes about 2 or 3 seconds to do that. Confirm climbing wings level, adjust pitch trim in the direction of 75 kts and make the radio call. You'd be rocketing skywards now doing at least 2000 fpm.
Not even any hurry to make the radio call in that area. He could have probably faked it, when on top at 4,000, or so, then called and request IFR to OXR (ILS). But, then again, perhaps his IFR skills were rusty from lack of use, precluding the ILS to OXR.
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Old 31st Jan 2020, 00:34
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Originally Posted by bryancobb
OMGGGG! And you can do that at 150kts headed straight into a funnel where rising terrain converges up to the cloud bases and you know there's Earth in the cloud ahead that you are about to climb into???? All while unexpectedly having to quickly establish a crosscheck and swap from eyes outside to instruments. SMH
We have some facts from the ADS-B data, published at https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/k...icopter-crash/


This is the final minute of flight, and before the descent begins, the aircraft is traveling at below 120 kts and above 2000 ft. A look at the topographical map confirms that there is no hilltop exceeding 2000 feet for miles in a westerly direction, and even the range it crashed into doesn't come up that high, see https://en-gb.topographic-map.com/maps/j3qe/Malibu/ (scroll a bit north) . If the helicopter had kept up the climb rate and heading, it'd have been safe and sound with respect to terrain. The left turn and descent caused the crash (mostly the descent, obviously). And at this point, we can only guess what caused that.


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Old 31st Jan 2020, 00:53
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Mmmmm ....

I have to admit to not knowing a lot about the S76B ... But is the Helipilot not similar to the Sperry SPZ 7600 as in the 412EP ... and if so we (?) used to train that in the event of a disorientation or emergency under IMC conditions we could just hit the 'GA' mode button (assumes the a/c is in ATT mode) and the heli will just drop all other AP modes pitch to the 75kt rotors level climb attitude, straight ahead and then command the collective pitch cue appropriately ... one would assume a current pilot flying into dodgy Wx in this quality of machine would have this 'bug out' strategy in mind !!

Perhaps some with first hand knowledge could confirm ??

Thanks ..
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Old 31st Jan 2020, 01:11
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You're correct SW, from my memory of flying both the 412 and 76. Trouble is if you're not full bottle and practiced at using the various functions available it can be all a bit overwhelming, particularly when you have the stress of being up to your neck in crocodiles.
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Old 31st Jan 2020, 01:15
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Am I correct in reading the ADS-B flight data that it took 15 seconds from level flight (Vert Speed 0 fpm) to rapid descent and losing contact.
Going half the speed would have bought some more valuable seconds unless it was a LOC incident.
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Old 31st Jan 2020, 02:53
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Originally Posted by manamale
It sounds to be like he went inadvertent IMC, initiated climb, started a left turn either intentionally or not, became spatially disorientated and was unable to recover. We are trained to recover from usual attitudes by rolling wings level but if we have put ourselves into that situation hard to say whether we would be able to fly ourselves out of it.

If this is the case we need to question why he did not couple up once he became disorientate or as soon as he was in the soup. Does the 76 have a go-around button? Are any of ye guys trained to couple up as a last resort for unusual attitude recovery?
Shouldn't that be the first resort in those conditions if you're in IFR conditions? You certainly can't hand bomb it single IFR in a commercial operation. Even if they had the cert ops spec tor whatever, they had to have a functioning autopilot.

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