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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

Old 29th Jan 2020, 23:34
  #281 (permalink)  
 
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Have two questions and apologies if they have been covered. The NTSB has stated that the craft was in a 2000 fpm descent at the end.

At the very start of the descent, is the current speculation that he was IN or OUT of IMC? I've assumed IN.
And doesn't this descent rate somewhat conflict with CFIT - as in for what logical reason would a pilot intend this?
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 00:03
  #282 (permalink)  
 
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Destination was Camarillo, no helipads near Mamba Sports Academy in Newbury Park. Common flight for this pax, land in Camarillo and then car service back to Newbury Park.
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 02:44
  #283 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Musician
I have seen no evidence at all that a landing near the Mamba Sports Academy was planned.
Nor have I.
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 03:02
  #284 (permalink)  
 
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The investigation will determine where each passenger was seated. Is it possible, rhetorically, that someone else was manipulating the controls? TBD...
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 03:36
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Originally Posted by eeeyow
Have two questions and apologies if they have been covered. The NTSB has stated that the craft was in a 2000 fpm descent at the end.

At the very start of the descent, is the current speculation that he was IN or OUT of IMC? I've assumed IN.
And doesn't this descent rate somewhat conflict with CFIT - as in for what logical reason would a pilot intend this?
I would like to ask a further question

We all know the decision to fly in soup ain’t fun.
I believe that this pilot had been in very similar positions many times over the years but in this case may have got overcome by the extra thick fog.

My question for All helicopter pilots.

If you make an abrupt control input eg max rate turn - is there a possibility of control jam ?
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 04:06
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Was the aircraft in question EFIS equipped?

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Old 30th Jan 2020, 04:23
  #287 (permalink)  
 
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If you make an abrupt control input eg max rate turn - is there a possibility of control jam
Nick Lappos, the S-76 test pilot says no.

Sikorsky S-76: Ask Nick Lappos

Some reading here.

Jackstall: What is it? Any experiences?
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 04:25
  #288 (permalink)  
 
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https://lbpost.com/news/island-expre...e-bryant-crash
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 04:38
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Originally Posted by Rated De
Was the aircraft in question EFIS equipped?
The equipment list for the 2015 auction where Island Express bought the helicopter (they changed the registration then) has a Honeywell EDZ-705 EFIS.
https://ibid.illinois.gov/item.php?id=123331
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 04:38
  #290 (permalink)  
 
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Crab wrote:

Far more important than any hi-tech gadget is a simple rule of aviation - Plan the flight and Fly the plan. If you haven't got a plan B for bad weather then you didn't plan the flight properly.

Scud running with the chance of IIMC and relying on ipad/TAWS/EGPWS to save you when it goes wrong is pure folly.

If you are low level in poor weather below the level of the surrounding terrain - you must have an escape route.
Probably the most sensible post on this whole thread Crab.

Some of the theories here indicate vivid imaginations.

When running S-76 Charters in the UK we would check the forecast the night before.

Plan A - If all OK then no problem to fly to a VFR destination (private site)
Plan B - If marginal, call VIPs and let them know there is the possibility of a weather problem, suggest alternative plan, offer to fly IFR to the nearest airport (with an instrument approach) and arrange a vehicle transfer (limo) to final destination.
Plan C - Cancel now and reschedule or arrange a vehicle transfer.



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Old 30th Jan 2020, 04:50
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Originally Posted by Musician
The equipment list for the 2015 auction where Island Express bought the helicopter (they changed the registration then) has a Honeywell EDZ-705 EFIS.
https://ibid.illinois.gov/item.php?id=123331

Thanks musician,

Just pondering whether an analogue display failed at the most inopportune time.
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 04:53
  #292 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Musician
I am speculating that the NTSB is using the opportunity which this high-profile case provides to push their old TAWS and "FDR/CVR for light commercial aircraft" recommendations in the hopes that they may get political traction this time when they hadn't before. From their perspective, even if this wasnt a situation where TAWS would have helped, situations where it will are sure to arise again. And understanding more clearly how light aircraft accidents occur ought to help save lives in the long run, too, that is the NTSB's reason to exist. I don't believe this push on the old recommendations expresses any opinion on this particular accident.

P.S.: From the NtSB's "Most Wanted" list: "Part 135 operators must implement safety management systems that include a flight data monitoring program," while this doesn't require a FDR per se, but rather a device where the data can be more easily downloaded from, the collected data is commonly copied off theFDR interface. This means that adding a FDR to a cockpit that doesn't have one (yet) might be a crucial step towards introducing that kind of safety management system.
TAWS is great for fixed wing, slightly less so for VMC ops in helicopters. The Terrain display as I said earlier is great.

A QAR/FDM sounds like a great move, for airlines. For most helicopters, when you transition from fixed to rotary (lobotomy assists) the first thing you note is that stuff happens at a different pace.You can be happy one moment and sitting in debris the next, so being aware of what you are doing is highly desirable in RW ops. trend monitoring doesn't necessarily give any signal of trends towards badness. Monitoring necessary would be flight controls, performance, attitude, power, in order to meaningfully understand what is happening, and then after that effort, it would help to know why you have a kitset, but it would not give a great deal of suggestion as to what your actual risks are. Risks of CFIT etc can be established quite well using COTS software already, to replay the info captured on an ipad. We do that for all of our jet flights already. Helicopter events are operational, Environmental, crew process, or mechanical. The latter is found by investigation, and basically never comes up on a QAR. The former are identifiable by review of readily accessible information from the aircraft, off the ipad, or from video, and that would give more info than a QAR would ever do. Don't get me wrong, QAR is great for RPT operations, where the profile of the operation is formalised and standardised to a high level of repeatability. Helicopters, ain't that. Every flight is it's own little enterprise. Personally, I have established a number of RPT and large aircraft SMS and QAR programs, and separately had made my own data recording system for flight test on small helicopters, and I would say there is not much happiness to be gained by a helicopter QAR system. Go buy an ipad, Stratus or similar, Foreflight or Garmin Pilot, and replay with CloudAhoy or similar. Add a couple of Go Pros, as they are just neat anyway. Or don't.

A helicopter operation is unlike RPT jets, and to think that they are, is myopic.

Personally, I love flying helicopters, for all of the same reasons, they need care and attention and tell you immediately if you are doing things right and even faster when you do things wrong.

A friend of mine as a young pilot was handed the keys to a brand new H-269C. The owner admonished him to "take care, it's a brand new chopper, don't bend it". "Yes, Sir!". The owner walked back to the office on the side of the hangar as the new pilot cranked up the blender. The owner hadn't touched the door knob by the time it took for ground resonance to have completed kitset-ing the shiny new toy. What is the trend monitoring tell you about that? dynamic roll over? LTE? RBS? VRS? CFIT? These things are identifiable without QAR, and to an extent, QAR wold not identify them unless you had an expert system.

More than in fixed wing, helicopter operations are stochastic in nature, and trending is of less value in an SMS program. But, if SMS makes one feel warm and fuzzy, then by all means, go ahead. My opinion is it is akin to the "Emperor has no clothes"; use the time to review personally or peer review the cloudahoy data, or go pro, that is where the truth is hidden.






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Old 30th Jan 2020, 04:56
  #293 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Musician
The equipment list for the 2015 auction where Island Express bought the helicopter (they changed the registration then) has a Honeywell EDZ-705 EFIS.
https://ibid.illinois.gov/item.php?id=123331
The same list has a Fairchild A100S CVR, but the NTSB reported they didn't find one. This suggests that there might have been changes to the equipment.
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 05:07
  #294 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bravo Delta
I would like to ask a further question

We all know the decision to fly in soup ain’t fun.
I believe that this pilot had been in very similar positions many times over the years but in this case may have got overcome by the extra thick fog.

My question for All helicopter pilots.

If you make an abrupt control input eg max rate turn - is there a possibility of control jam ?
Nick Lappos is the Man and Pro for sure concerning S76, but the investigation board made a finding 2005 that flight controls might partially jam with some coll/cyclic
combinations... and the pilot needs to use additional force to release the jam... (Now we are talking about ”extreme handling” in stead of normal flight.)
This finding was done when S76C+ ended in the Gulf of Finland 10/08/2005 and 14 people perished.


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Old 30th Jan 2020, 06:17
  #295 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless
Rotor Heads over the Years has been filled with similar tragedies as this current one.

There was the 109 that cut down the Crane Mast in downtown London, the 139 that came to grief one night in a Cow Pasture during takeoff, there was the 139 that crashed shortly after takeoff from an Island in the Bahamas, and so many others.

We all either knew the pilots involved, knew of those pilots, (and others in so many accidents I have not bothered to list....but LOTS of pilots).

I have lost friends...some who were excellent pilots and some who were lucky (one guy survived a mid-air with a MIG Fighter.....another survived a mid-air in cloud with a friendly fighter).....so this phenomenon of good pilots coming to grief is nothing new or unusual.

It is the why it continues to happen that is the issue.

We all know about it....we are all exposed to it....and despite all the training, experience, education, safety programs.....we still seem to find a way to get our names in the newspaper headlines.

This latest Pilot is no different than the rest of us.....he fully intended to get home at the end of his work day but did not.

Folks....he is not going to be the last one we read about.

Sadly.....one of you riding this post might just be the next one we discuss.

Think about that for a minute......what do you want us to say about your demise?

You can rule me out....I am retired and have no intention of ever being in a situation again, particularly as a passenger...not even in an EMS Helicopter, that it might happen to me.

So....who is next?
I often find myself looking for the "Like" button .... this post from SAS is one of those occasions. My great fear is that after 35 years of flying, I may make a human error one day and end up in a smoking hole in the ground, much to the disappointment of those who will say "he was such a good, careful, professional pilot .... bla, bla, bla". I aim to be a perfect pilot, but I know I never will be. Whenever I hear / read about these (seemingly) avoidable tragedies, I file them away & those memories have helped me make good decisions that I may not have made otherwise. So, I reiterate SAS's comment to ... "Think about that for a minute......what do you want us to say about your demise?"
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 06:25
  #296 (permalink)  
 
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"Think about that for a minute......what do you want us to say about your demise?"
Or as one of my instructors says, "Before you do that, ask yourself, how will this look in the NTSB report?"
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 06:35
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Originally Posted by eeeyow
Have two questions and apologies if they have been covered. The NTSB has stated that the craft was in a 2000 fpm descent at the end.

At the very start of the descent, is the current speculation that he was IN or OUT of IMC? I've assumed IN.
And doesn't this descent rate somewhat conflict with CFIT - as in for what logical reason would a pilot intend this?
Far upthread I posted some PIREPs from that morning. Tops were reported between 2200 and 2600'. My presumption is that they were still in the clouds at the top of the climb (reports and data I've seen had them topping out around 2200)

I likewise don't understand the decent rate from a CFIT perspective. I'd see it more resulting from spatial disorientation, or, however unlikely, some sort of mechanical issue. I can't see how you'd want to descend, much less dive, out of an inadvertent IMC encounter without knowing for absolute certainty you weren't going to run into something solid. Better to get on top, or if stuck in the soup (and assuming basic IFR proficiency), fly somewhere you know you can let down.

From my own navel-gazing, I agree with BrogulT that a straight ahead max-performance climb would appear to have been the best option. If the pilot was familiar with the area (as reportedly he was), a climb along the track of the 101 which he was already following would have meant the least likelihood of encountering terrain. Depending on the climb capability, given the typical marine layer pattern here, he'd be reasonably assured to be on top within 30-60 seconds.
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 07:12
  #298 (permalink)  
 
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The pilot is reported to have been close to Bryant and his family - perhaps that affected the sense of detachment required to make safety decisions completely removed from the wishes and aspirations of his pax.

In rapidly changing weather which required instant responses, a slight distraction from his primary task - fly the aircraft - could have been the difference between success and failure.

Subtly different from an aggressive pax demanding you get him there - more a self imposed pressure of not wanting to let a friend down.
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 08:33
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SAS and Crab - two best posts so far by far. Much common sense - luck is such a huge factor and I should know......................
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Old 30th Jan 2020, 09:47
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Originally Posted by cncpc
Do you have a link to that audio where he asks for the climb?
I don't think that has been released. LiveATC uses volunteer receivers to capture radio traffic, and N72EX being low between the mountains, they didn't capture the pilot's part of this conversation. I assume that the NTSB has access to a more complete recording made at SoCal TRACON, and that Ms Homendy was referring to that in the media briefing that I've transcribed and linked. Hopefully we'll find out more when the preliminary NTSB report comes out.
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