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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

Old 28th Jan 2020, 11:05
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic
As a layman that's exactly what I would have assumed. Is it possible you could explain without undue effort?
Just to add to Bravo73's comments, in many helicopters, airspeed indicators aren't very useful below about 20 - 30kts and certainly won't work when drifting sideways or backwards, so there is very little to inform you of whether you are drifting and if so, in which direction. GPS track/groundspeed may help but is influenced by wind so is not really that helpful unless you know the wind accurately. There is a recent example of a trained Search & Rescue crew in the UK who attempted the exact same recovery mentioned in the article (hover, and climb vertically until clear of terrain or VMC), and despite their training and experience, only managed to get away after unintentionally rotating through 370° while they climbed. Here's the report so you can read about the hovering in IMC incident in more depth if you wish: https://assets.publishing.service.go...MCGR_09-19.pdf
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 11:35
  #182 (permalink)  
 
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An usual way to avoid this kind of scud runnig accidents is going to destination in a low level route following shore-line. Why he decided to go through mountain low pass??
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 11:39
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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Bell Ringer....right here at this thread a couple of folks were posting the Pilot's name.

One small problem was they were posting the WRONG name.

The Media is having a wonderful time posting all sorts of bogus bull**** about this sad event and we are seeing much of the same by some of the posts here.

As Crab correctly notes.....this is the one place in the World that this particular Pilot should get an even break.

These tragic events can happen to any of us despite our best efforts and training....and that is what should be of concern to us.

Every one of these tragedies must be a learning opportunity so that more of us do not fall prey to whatever got this Pilot.

I have no problem with this....or any accident being discussed but fully expect that discussion to be professional and intended to produce a Lessons Learned Summary.

That is what the formal accident investigation shall attempt to do.....perhaps we might try to copy their standards as best we can here at Rotor Heads.

I know for a fact that posting incorrect information or tolerating pure assed speculation is not the way to go.

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Old 28th Jan 2020, 12:28
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Helisweet
An usual way to avoid this kind of scud runnig accidents is going to destination in a low level route following shore-line. Why he decided to go through mountain low pass??
Because it was cloudy along the coast. Coastal California is notorious for coastal clouds and fog, which can dissipate by mid-day and change rapidly by just going a few miles inland. It can be socked it at the coast, and bright and sunny a half mile inland (and at takeoff location). See post 161 for flight paths taken on previous flights and the accident flight. The coastal fog seemed worse than normal on this day, prompting a decision to take a further inland route up intestate 5 to the San Fernando Valley, then west.
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 12:39
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless
Bell Ringer....right here at this thread a couple of folks were posting the Pilot's name.

One small problem was they were posting the WRONG name.

The Media is having a wonderful time posting all sorts of bogus bull**** about this sad event and we are seeing much of the same by some of the posts here.

As Crab correctly notes.....this is the one place in the World that this particular Pilot should get an even break.

These tragic events can happen to any of us despite our best efforts and training....and that is what should be of concern to us.

Every one of these tragedies must be a learning opportunity so that more of us do not fall prey to whatever got this Pilot.

I have no problem with this....or any accident being discussed but fully expect that discussion to be professional and intended to produce a Lessons Learned Summary.

That is what the formal accident investigation shall attempt to do.....perhaps we might try to copy their standards as best we can here at Rotor Heads.

I know for a fact that posting incorrect information or tolerating pure assed speculation is not the way to go.

Completely agree.
The sheer amount of gumpf being spread by the media doesn't help anyone in aviation.
I see the mail is busy doing a great job telling their punters that helicopter travel is unsafe.

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Old 28th Jan 2020, 13:10
  #186 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer
I see the mail is busy doing a great job telling their punters that helicopter travel is unsafe.
Alan Sugar has been spouting about how unsafe helicopters are (his opinion). Surely he doesn't believe that a similarly sized, fixed wing aircraft (such as the one he personally crashed at Barton Airport in good weather a few years ago), been "safe" in these exact circumstances?
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 13:15
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:" it meant that they were too low for ATC to provide flight following assistance, not presumably too low for terrain avoidance".

Let the tabloid press understand this.
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 13:24
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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As we discuss this tragedy, take a moment and try to put yourself into the pilot's seat and think how you would have reacted had you encountered deteriorating weather as you were routing along a highway that had rising ground on both sides of you.

You are sat in a very nice twin engined IFR equipped aircraft with an autopilot and plenty of bells and whistles.

You also had other Electronic Aids along with you.

You are Instrument Rated,

You are bound for an off airport landing site.....you are familiar with the route....you know there is clear air above you.....there are VMC conditions behind you and major airports are IMC but with weather well above all IFR Approach Minimums.

Having mulled all this over for a while.....keep your answer in mind while you read the many posts here, Media Reports, and News Broadcasts on TV.

Then ask yourself why your answer differs from what actually happened....and then ask yourself "why".

That is what needs to be our focus.....there are lessons to be learned here....probably the same old lessons that we have learned in far too many of these tragedies.
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 13:47
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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SAS, an observation from some of the coverage of various accidents where weather was a factor.
On ATC recordings, it surprises me how calm many pilots sound, right up to the moment it all ends.
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 13:51
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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What really surprises me about this accident is the pilot seemed so calm and in control during his conversations with the ATC and then within seconds it all goes to ****, did he suddenly change his original plan or did panic set in?

Sorry BR just see you posted pretty much the same as me
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 13:59
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:" it meant that they were too low for ATC to provide flight following assistance, not presumably too low for terrain avoidance".
Too low for both I suggest.
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 14:07
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Helisweet
An usual way to avoid this kind of scud runnig accidents is going to destination in a low level route following shore-line. Why he decided to go through mountain low pass??
Just google Marine Layer. As Sandiego89 states, the California coastline is notoriously bad for this phenomenon, especially in the mornings before the sun can burn it off.

I can't post links yet but there was LA Times piece by Paul Duginski yesterday on how it's likely have contributed to the crash.
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 14:27
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cabby
.....
birds.....If the pilot knew the area well he would have known the heights of the surrounding terrain, and I would be surprised he descended so fast while IMC?. Seems odd he was climbing to then make a steep 4000ft/min descent from what I read above?....heart attack......
I know you are trying hard to find a external cause or a medical, but spatial disorientation can also do that. JFK Jr. and countless others did not "mean" to descend so fast.
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 14:34
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nomorehelosforme
What really surprises me about this accident is the pilot seemed so calm and in control during his conversations with the ATC and then within seconds it all goes to ****, did he suddenly change his original plan or did panic set in?

Sorry BR just see you posted pretty much the same as me
Funny, when I went IIMC a few years ago, I too was calm throughout the incident (as was my navigator) however, that didn't prevent me from essentially freezing up on the controls.

Perhaps calmness is from a sense of disbelief and/or self delusion that the situation isn't all that bad and we can still make it out without declaring (even to ourselves) that its an emergency?
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 14:42
  #195 (permalink)  
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Thank you Robbiee for an educational explanation from your uncomfortable personal experience.
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 15:09
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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Unless there is some very unlikely mechanical factor found nobody will learn anything from this sad loss I’ve lost friends from exactly the same cause, “gethereitis”. It probably affects commercial pilots more than amateurs, lots of experience and qualification, familiar with the area, aware of the conditions, maybe even got away with it many times.
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 15:10
  #197 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for the professional refocus, SASless. Was not CFIT. Nothing controlled about the end of the flight. He had hit the "cannot go further" after following a great low-vis visual reference, the freeway and now had at least 3 options:

1. Landed on the Station 125 helipad beside the freeway at Las Virgenes Road, or
2. positioned to the left side and done a slow tight right turn (his side with all the good windows for reference) 180 and exit east along the 101, or
3. big depend on local terrain knowledge, climbed up to an MSA and called ATC as a pop-up for an approach to Camarillo that has an LPV limits of 300-3/4.

All three are not bad options, throw the passenger considerations in the mix, and the one we'd like as pilots - landing on a pad and having a coffee to wait 30 minutes for the rapidly changing weather- isn't one your "precious time" passengers are keen on. To turn and back out on the 101, now you are over an hour into your fuel, still have to get to the coast, still have to stooge around to the west and try to get back up your intended spot, more time lost that has the passengers drumming their fingers. Lastly, you are finally somewhat out of the ATC zoo of the LA basin, and with whatever you have in the cockpit (even Foreflight on an iPad) you manage your own terrain separation and climb up calling ATC for a clearance. Well, he got to reportedly 2400', had turned south to line up with the lower ground down towards Malibu, got the call in to ATC, and then... it all went pear shaped.

Did he couple the autopilot to the heading bug and IAS on the climb, pull MCP, trim to 80 knots. Did he have a GPS referenced terrain map apart from Foreflight. Any modern situational awareness avionics like a Garmin 750, could it fly an LPV, could he fly an LPV, or was he stuck with a POS stone age UNS-1D. That weather is pretty normal stuff for the LA Basin. Sheriffs are being a little dramatic, their SOP limits are 800-2 by department standards, well above the FAA VFR legal limits, so wrong guys to ask.

If the climb was planned and intentional, vs the two other options, then it must have been sanctioned in some way by the operator. When was the last time "*A-a*" was in an S76 simulator for IFR practise, how did he do on check rides in the sim (the only place to simulate hard IMC), what was the automation use SOP for that organization. Platitudes from fellow pilots and students mean nothing in this discussion.
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 15:21
  #198 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sandiego89
Because it was cloudy along the coast. Coastal California is notorious for coastal clouds and fog, which can dissipate by mid-day and change rapidly by just going a few miles inland. It can be socked it at the coast, and bright and sunny a half mile inland (and at takeoff location). See post 161 for flight paths taken on previous flights and the accident flight. The coastal fog seemed worse than normal on this day, prompting a decision to take a further inland route up intestate 5 to the San Fernando Valley, then west.
If I may second sandiego89's point. I spent just under five flying out of North Island (San Diego Area). And various points north in coastal southern california.
The coastal fog was a thing that we always had to be wary of and had to have a back up plan for. As he says, you can be a few miles inland and it's not a factor at all, but for a while each morning our coastal fields and bases often shut down flight ops and just waited for the stuff to go away/burn off. In a related anecdote, it wasn't that uncommon on the weekend, if you were up with the dew sweepers at Torry Pines public golf course, to tee off into the fog on the first hole and not be able to see where your ball went. By the time you reached number 9 yere were in the well known, stereotypical gorgeous SoCal weather.

On my not-too-frequent forays into the cluttered airspace of the LA area, I flew with a paranoid mindset. Why? Because we were not used to that kind of traffic density where we normally operated, and we had less of a "feel" for the local terrain/features/nuances of the airspace volume.

This pilot was likely very used to all of the ins and outs, and nuances, of the LA flying area: the traffic density, the way the fog rolls in, when and how, major and minor roads ...
He was in an around it for years.
So what made this flight different?
It is unfortunate that there isn't a CVR or FDR for the NTSB to consult.
I'll be interested to see what they come up with.
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 15:27
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
It's been explained to me by an adjunct law professor (kinda like a pilot who is a 'consultant' ) that it doesn't matter that much whether expert testimony is correct. It matters whether the testimony is persuasive to a judge and jury.
Your adjunct friend is right. The judge is not going to sit there and declare what is right and wrong, he or she is very unlikely to have any clue. Judges are (ideally) experts in evidence and trial procedures and the law of their jurisdiction, but that doesn't mean they know jack squat about flight and VFR and IFR and all these acronyms. And of course juries typically know even less. Whatever an expert can persuade a jury to believe, that generally becomes the "truth" so far as that trial is concerned.

As for dude in ball cap with great sounding talk track, he may have an accurate take or that helicopter may never have hovered over him and he may have been totally delusional about what was happening above. I don't know how pushing levers up and down on one of those sound things in a church qualifies you for much of anything other than setting up the sound in a church. But not my point. The guy would be a great fact witness (non-expert) in court because he sounds so authoritative. Alas, that often trumps truth and competence.
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 15:47
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Juan Browne, on the "blancolirio" channel on youtube, has a very clear and factual discussion on the issue of SVFR into IMC conditions in a helicopter. Leaves out the conjecture and bs.
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