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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

Old 19th Feb 2020, 02:01
  #661 (permalink)  
 
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Gulli is spot on with his advice to fly in the Attitude Mode (ATT).

We were taught as Nubbins to set an "attitude" to achieve the desired effect from the helicopter beginning in our very first days learning to hover.

Carry that thought forward.....if you. have an autopilot system that will do that for you....why not use it?

Release the Force Trim....move the Cyclic to adjust to the attitude you want....release the Force Trim button....and George attempts to hold that attitude for you. You can make very fine temporary adjustments with light pressure on the Cyclic or by use of the Trim Switch.

That is at a Hover.....and in forward flight use the same procedure until established in the cruise....then use the Trim Switch as the primary.

Engage the "Holds" as desired and let the AP do all of the work.

Make use of all the features you can.....and spend more time attending to other duties while monitoring the AP's flying of the aircraft.

One Pilot (of the human version) must fly the machine at all times.....keep it straight which one is doing that and never leave George unattended.

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Old 19th Feb 2020, 02:08
  #662 (permalink)  
 
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SAS posted:

ĒWe must constantly remember "Currency", especially if it is only the "legal" definition of currency, is not to be confused in anyway as being "proficiency".

Has anyone access or knowledge of the pilotís flight records for the past few years, specifically actual and simulator instrument time?
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Old 19th Feb 2020, 05:03
  #663 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JohnDixson View Post
Has anyone access or knowledge of the pilotís flight records for the past few years, specifically actual and simulator instrument time?
The accident pilot's colleagues are reported to have said he had never flown in cloud before. I've got a hunch also that he'd never been checked out in a S76 simulator.
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Old 19th Feb 2020, 07:09
  #664 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
The accident pilot's colleagues are reported to have said he had never flown in cloud before. I've got a hunch also that he'd never been checked out in a S76 simulator.
If that is the case then simple disorientation following IIMC seems the most likely cause.

I don't think anyone should hold an IR if they haven't been in cloud.

I have lost count of the number of students who are really good under the hood but go to pieces when you actually get into the fluffy stuff.
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Old 19th Feb 2020, 11:27
  #665 (permalink)  
 
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I have lost count of the number of students who are really good under the hood but go to pieces when you actually get into the fluffy stuff
Trouble is crab you don't have to have flown in white fluffy stuff to get an instrument rating.
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Old 19th Feb 2020, 11:38
  #666 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Trouble is crab you don't have to have flown in white fluffy stuff to get an instrument rating.
Exactly. I've seen freshly minted IR pilots come through the cloud-free IR training pipeline and the first time they enter cloud they lose it within a minute. That is the point where the proper IR training begins. With passengers, on line operations.
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Old 19th Feb 2020, 12:22
  #667 (permalink)  
 
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I found I flew better in-cloud than by using a Hood as my instrument scan and other tasks got much easier due to the ability to use my peripheral vision.

I fully agree that the best learning is done doing it for real.....with a proper Simulato being the second best option.

The Simulator is where the best learning takes place but for straight forward flying ability and confidence boosting....flying in real weather is the best course.

One observation about pilots and instrument flying.....are they flying "instruments" or flying the Attitude Indicator?

My Army Instrument Instructor , regardless of policy, insisted the AI was a secondary instrument that was used to set a new attitude to cause some effect that was determined by what all of the other Instruments were indicating.

The way I used to check for this in the Sim or the aircraft was to begin the age old "Unusual Attitude" drill...with the Student putting his head down and closing his eyes....while I moved the aircraft about all three axis.....but at the start of it while straight and level I would adjust his attitude indicator 5-10 degrees wing low.

Then...when in an all but wings level attitude (5-10 degrees of bank) showing on his attitude indicator....off we went for the roller coaster ride.

Remember....there were three Attitude Indicators in the aircraft that he could look at any time he wished.

Most would take three evolutions of going wings level...then correcting a turn...then correcting a turn...then correcting a turn.....before realizing something was wrong with his Attitude Indicator.

Sadly....some would never figure it out and thus never be in full control of the aircraft either physically or mentally.

That Instructor is the one that required me to fly a Huey...no SAS, with no Gyro's, fixed card heading indicator, and mag compass then complete an NDB Hold and NDB approach....before he would sign me off.

Are we seeing that level of training these days?

Mind you those skills are highly perishable

We should also remember another Aviation Law... "Never let bad judgement put you into a situation where you need your best skills!".
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Old 19th Feb 2020, 12:38
  #668 (permalink)  
 
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My instrument training was military and done beneath a bag in fixed wing, so absolutely no cheating. Sim instructor once gave a failed a primary fattitude indicator in the -76, an approach plate was quickly stuck over the offending instrument.

SAS, Superior pilots use their superior judgment to avoid situations that would require the use of their superior skills. Not too sure I ever measured up.
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Old 19th Feb 2020, 12:38
  #669 (permalink)  
 
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There is another question that comes to mind, and apologies for not remembering this,but, some FADEC’s may have memory chips and although not crash protected,if they survive,may offer evidence of what the collective/engine situation was up to the crash point. Does anyone know if the B model PT-6 FADEC’s have such a chip?
(I might have mentioned that on the initial design of the UH-60,and in spite of the Army saying they didn’t need it,Rich Murphy, who ran the Avionics/Electronic Flight Controls Group at the time, had such a chip designed and installed into the AFCS computer with exactly this sort of use intended. Never got any credit for doing something most of us thought very admirable ).
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Old 19th Feb 2020, 12:59
  #670 (permalink)  
 
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Given the engine gearboxes melted in the ensuing fire, chances are any memory chips are also kaput. In any event, at this point not even the wildest theory is even remotely suggesting any engine problem was involved here.
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Old 19th Feb 2020, 13:28
  #671 (permalink)  
 
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What are the ROD/Airspeed combinations for the 76B and how do those correlate with the airspeed/ROD data that has been presented?

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Old 19th Feb 2020, 13:35
  #672 (permalink)  
 
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The PT6's in the B had the EEC and was pretty basic stuff.
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Old 19th Feb 2020, 15:31
  #673 (permalink)  
 
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GB, I wasn't thinking about the engines being involved at all: my thought was that the FADEC data could lead to learning at least what the collective was doing. .
Should have added that I’m certain that SA is assisting the NTSB,and they will certainly be chasing down any possibilities re data that might be obtained from either the engine Fadec or the Honeywell AP box. The crash photos makes that hope a bit optimistic but its a box you have to check-literally.

Last edited by JohnDixson; 19th Feb 2020 at 16:15.
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Old 19th Feb 2020, 18:50
  #674 (permalink)  
 
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Sas - the selective radial scan has always been the UK mil tecbnique - starts with the AI to select an attitude then goes to and from each instrument to check the effect of that attitude but always back to the AI.

It's easier on a PFD/ MFD since all the information is on one screen but the premise is the same.
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Old 19th Feb 2020, 19:08
  #675 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
Hands and feet off the controls, let George do all the hard work.
For an experienced pilot/sim instructor to be teaching pilots to "get their hands off of the controls" makes my skin crawl. Even if George is doing it, you guard the controls, and you monitor what George is doing.
1. SIr Korsky's example is one point to remember.
2. Overdendence on automation erodes pilto skills and kills people.
3. Use the kit per SASless' and your general points, but do not become a passenger if you are the pilot.
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Old 19th Feb 2020, 19:32
  #676 (permalink)  
 
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I don't think anyone should hold an IR if they haven't been in cloud.
I agree 100% with the principle, but the problem is that most civilian heli training is done in R22/R44, including IR, and while the R44 (at least) can be fully equipped for IFR, it can't legally be flown in IMC. An IMC-legal heli is way more expensive to operate and most schools don't have them. So the only way to do this would be to do the IMC part in FW, which would pose a whole bunch of problems of its own. Flying a heli under the hood is a bit of a joke, imho - even with the Steampunk Francis Hood, you still have to work at it not to see outside.

Personally I rather like flying in IMC (FW), and much prefer it to the hood. But I 100% agree that it's a totally different experience. Also even for the most experienced pilot, it takes a few seconds to really change gear and get into full-on IMC mode, even when you're expecting it. (I'm not by any means "the most experienced pilot" but I've confirmed this in discussions with people who have reasonable claim to it).
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Old 19th Feb 2020, 20:54
  #677 (permalink)  
 
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The accident pilot's colleagues are reported to have said he had never flown in cloud before.
From the NTSB Update:
According to FAA records, the pilot held an FAA commercial certificate with ratings for helicopter and instrument helicopter, as well as an FAA instructor certificate for flight, instrument, and ground instruction...His most recent flight review, including proficiency training in inadvertent entry into instrument meteorological conditions (IIMC) and unusual attitude recovery, was conducted in a helicopter with EUROSAFETY International on May 8, 2019. The pilot received satisfactory grades for these maneuvers.
At face value, that looks reasonable, but as a few people rightly pointed out, clouds and a hood are different. The stress that this is "real", the disorientation as the ground appears then disappears, the tendancy to turn with no visual cue etc. And of course temperature, mountains and MEAs. As I am reading, this sounds doubly hard in a helicopter.

I did all of my fixed wing instrument training in an aircraft rather than a sim and was lucky enough to find an instructor who was willing to do most of it at night and also some night IMC (I think him not having kids helped). I feel that it helped me tremendously. My most memorable learning moment was during the winter when ATC wouldn't give us our desired departure route at the 5000' MEA over Livermore due to the Oakland arrivals, instead routing us towards Panoche which was a 7000' MEA. The freezing level was 6000'. We knew that wasn't going to work. But the instructor turned it into a brief but effective learning exercise while we were still over an area with a low MDA. As we continued climbing, he got out his flashlight, pointed it at the strut, said "Here, I got it. Look out the window. You don't ever want to see that." We asked for and were quickly granted a 180.
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Old 19th Feb 2020, 22:24
  #678 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
For an experienced pilot/sim instructor to be teaching pilots to "get their hands off of the controls" makes my skin crawl..
In the S76 that is what you do. Feet on the floor. Hands off the controls. Control inputs come via pushing buttons or trim switches or turning knobs. Or, as SAS correctly pointed out, you can bump the cyclic flight control against the force trim spring pressure to make small adjustments on a precision approach. There is nothing that can go so wrong with the system or the aircraft where you need to be guarding the controls. Hands are sufficiently within reach to respond to any system disturbance that would require hands to go back on the controls. That is how you do it.
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Old 19th Feb 2020, 22:25
  #679 (permalink)  
 
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Flying in "Icing Conditions".....in a helicopter can be very educational.

Done at night over the North Sea way oop north can be very educational.

I promised myself several times I would never do that again.

Flying Airplanes in the Pacific Northwest could get rather interesting with all of the very high chunks of rocks out that way.

But...if you keep your wits about you....have a couple of planned options for the eventualities.....you can manage.

Just like kissing Rattlesnakes.....a lot of prevention pays off....don't scrimp.....it isn't worth it.

Last edited by SASless; 19th Feb 2020 at 23:15.
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Old 19th Feb 2020, 22:27
  #680 (permalink)  
 
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Nobody is going to let a newly minted doctor perform heart transplant surgery straight out of medical school are they? The key is in the primacy techniques adopted when training. If students are taught the right way from the start, it would program the mindset to adopt quality ADM when needed. Would you throw the keys to your IMC flown S76 to a newly minted guy? No, you'd send him out with an experienced guy until he gains the experience needed to become competent and comfortable within the IFR environment. Real world IMC flying is on the job training and the learning never ceases. The administrator understands this and licenses are issued as a foundation for development and progress.
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